Transcript: Lena Waithe on Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Hello everyone. Welcome to another

episode of Good Hang. We are very

excited about our guest today. It is

Lena Waith, writer, producer, actor.

Lena does so many things so well and

she's the coolest. And we're going to

get into how cool she is today. We're

going to get into the way she likes to

work. We're going to talk about our love

of Chicago. We're going to talk about

Blockbuster, a place where you had to go

and rent videos in person. We're going

to talk about the fact that she is the

first black woman to ever win a prime

time Emmy in comedy writing. We're going

to talk about couples therapy. We're

going to get into it, but before we do

that, um, we always have this section of

the show where we speak to somebody who

knows our guest, who wants to speak well

behind their back and give me some

questions to ask. And joining me are the

two directors, Tony awardwinning

directors um of uh Cat's Jellical Ball,

the show that is out on Broadway as we

speak and that Lena is a producer on.

And so uh let's hear from uh Jaylen

Levenson and Bill Roush.

Gentlemen,

hello.

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>> Hi, Bill. Hi, Jaylen. Nice to meet you.

By the way, congratulations Tony

winners.

>> That did happen.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> Before we talk about our guest, just

talk me through the evening of the

Tony's, which is my absolute favorite

award show.

>> Yeah, it was very surreal. I was there

with my um mother and my partner and uh

me and Bill sat by each other and we had

to keep playing musical chairs cuz we um

Bill had family, I had family. We wanted

to like share the time that we sat by

them during the awards show. Um and

>> Wait, hold on. Let's I'm going to pause

right there. You guys were making sure

that you gave everyone in your family

enough time.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> We need to talk. This is why you can't

bring family to award shows. [laughter]

>> Well, for those people that haven't had

the pleasure of coming to Broadway and

seeing Jellico Ball, can you just

explain what it is?

>> It is Andrew Lloyd Weber's musical Cats

set in the ballroom scene uh that grew

out of Harlem. Uh and uh so our cats are

not cats, they're human beings competing

in a in a competitive ball. And uh I

have never been part of a project in my

whole life that more people love. Like

whatever your age, whatever your

relationship to Ballroom, whatever your

relationship to Andrew Lloyd Weber's

musical, people who love it, people who

think they hate it, uh everybody has a

just

an overwhelmingly positive experience at

the Jellico Ball.

>> And Jayen, can you explain when you say

ballroom what that means?

>> Yeah. So, so Ballroom is an underground

queer culture um that really started in

New York uh around 1977.

Um, and and really the the main

architect at the very beginning was a a

powerful, beautiful uh woman named

Crystal Leasia who was a trans woman of

color who had felt rejected by the queer

pageant scene and left that scene to

start uh what we know to be ballroom.

And when I say ballroom as a culture,

much like hiphop, it has multiple

elements. So ballroom is both an

artistic way of expressing oneself. It

is competition. It is vogue. It is all

of those kind of um aesthetic things

that we understand about the craft. But

it's also a chosen family structure

that's been organized since 1972. And

this structure is centered around the

house and the house mother and the house

father and really springs out of a need

for um young queer kids who needed

family at a very specific point and they

are coming to themselves to catch them

when maybe their um biological families

were not able to do so. It's such a

great transition into Lena Waif because

her work and her life is kind of a

living example of sharing herself with

the world, trying to figure out how to

mentor other people, try to make people

feel seen and and feel included. And,

you know, as a black queer woman, she is

like breaking barriers everywhere she

goes. She's the first here, she's the

first there. She's like supporting and

giving her voice to to all different

kinds of projects. And she is a producer

on your show.

>> That's right.

>> How did that come to be?

>> She saw it when we did it downtown. She

saw the off Broadway production and she

flipped over it and she brought Cynthia

Revo to see it and uh she just let us

know uh if this thing can happen on

Broadway, I want to be part of it. I

want to be part of making it happen. and

she was present from uh one of our first

rehearsals in the rehearsal room right

on through previews right on through the

run. She's been a an actively engaged

producer in a beautiful way.

>> What does a producer on Broadway need to

do?

>> Well, they need to find us some money.

[laughter]

>> That's a big uh

>> part of it. [laughter] Um the the art of

the commerce. Um but but apart from that

also Lena is you know a public figure

with a platform and is able to to um

shepherd eyes to issues that she really

cares about. And I know one of the

things that Lena really cares about in

this season in her life is like how to

get people off their phones and into a

room together. And so um I'm glad that

Cats is a show that she feels is within

that mission. Um, I know she's starting

to do a lot of theater work herself, but

um, yeah, letting people know that this

kind of getting up out of your couch,

leaving your house, and being in a room

with strangers, as weird as that kink

is, might be the only way um, for us to

make it through the next few years.

>> I feel like New York is is often like

leading by example how it feels to be

among a lot of people, right? New York

is always bustling and even just the

recent Knicks win is a great example of

watching people, you know, literally rub

shoulders and enjoy something together.

>> You can get the high from the Knicks

winning every day at Cajelico Ball every

[laughter] day. It is that it is that

exciting. It is that thrilling. It

builds community in that direct way.

Absolutely. [laughter]

>> Not untrue. And uh what is she what's

Lena like as a person? Because I I I

like to speak well behind people's back

and I found Lena to be really really

like charming, curious, kind. What's it

been like to get to know her? What kind

of person is she?

>> She's so dope. She's so cool. And

>> this is the thing I'm a little worried

about. She's so cool.

>> Yeah, she is. That is true.

>> Like I already put on my outfit today

and I looked I just before I came in I

looked in the mirror and I went, "Oh,

[ __ ] Jesus Christ. Like [laughter]

she's you cannot beat you can't beat

She's just so cool.

>> I know. But you're cool, too.

>> Oh my god. I'm not fishing, but thank

you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

>> She's also She's so at ease with herself

that it that it puts you.

>> So, it's be so fun to hang out with her.

>> So, we have a thing here where we we ask

uh to get a question for our guest. And

you guys have been working with Lena.

You know her professionally.

We're going to get into a bunch of

different things that she does, but is

there anything that you think I should

ask her, big, small, silly, important,

that you'd want to hear her talk about?

>> When did you first know in your soul

that you were an artist?

>> Great. It's such a theater question.

>> Yeah,

>> that is such a theater question. I love

it. Well, let's all get in a circle.

Let's ask each other this

>> direct eye contact

>> while we give each other back [laughter]

in the circle.

>> Yeah. Love it. one is like I've also

seen Lena a lot on the dance floor and

you know however cool she is in life she

is a hund times cooler on the dance

floor and um I'm always like trying to

think about how to maintain coolness on

the dance floor and I would ask her who

does she like to see on the dance floor

like when she goes out she's like ah

that person's here I know the party the

the dancing is going to beyond 10. Um,

so I'll be curious to know what that

list is for her.

>> Oh, these are incredible questions. You

guys are such good directors. Amazing.

>> Well, thank you guys so much for this

time. I know Lena will be thrilled that

we talked and um and it means a lot.

Congratulations again on your success

and on your artistry and the great work

that you do and the way that you're

putting, like you said, so much joy into

the world.

>> Robert, blow, back to you, Amy. You're

doing really joyful work and we need

this podcast and this platform in the

world right now.

>> Absolutely.

>> Thanks. Let's just keep trying to do it

against the rising tide of nonsense.

Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you

both.

>> Thank you, Amy.

>> We love you, Lena. [laughter]

>> Bye, guys.

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>> I was really, really looking forward to

just cuz we get to hang out.

>> I mean, come on. I know.

>> We like to do this when we're not on

camera.

>> I know. That's the cool part.

>> Well, it's been um Lena W is here,

everybody. Very exciting. How's your

mic?

>> Good. Good. I'm just like placing it. I

don't have a hat on, which I was like

debating like, do I wear a hat? I'm I'm

feeling good about the no hat.

>> Yeah, I liked I mean I Lena everything

everything you wear is so cool.

[laughter]

>> Like look at that.

>> Like everything you wear a hat, you take

it off. It looks [laughter] like come

on. [gasps]

>> Coolest hat ever.

>> Wear my own clothes. This is my own my

own [ __ ] right here.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's like I want to

get into that actually cuz it's

[clears throat] kind of

>> I want to talk to you about your your

look, your style, and also just the fact

that like you're like the my coolest

friend. [laughter]

>> We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay.

>> You're the best.

>> Um, so I heard you say something on

another podcast that I love and I've

been thinking about it a lot.

>> Jesus, who knows?

>> No, but I think it was another podcast.

Uh, or um or Tik Tok probably, but

>> Okay. Not on there. No, but that those

are that's where I um get all my

information. But

>> you and everybody else.

>> Yeah, I know. But you said like if

you're you said something that I love,

which is if you're afraid that people

are going to steal your ideas, you

should have more ideas.

>> That is true. I did say that probably

the podcast

>> and it's such a great it's it's I I

totally agree. Can you tell me what you

mean by that?

>> Okay, this is a really good way to kick

off such a great question because that's

why you have a Peabody. Um [laughter]

>> here's the deal. There's this

interesting debate that happens where a

lot of

>> upand cominging writers, if you will,

talk about how do I protect my ideas?

>> Should I get them copywritten? Should I

like register them with the WGA? And

>> I always have a very I guess it's a hot

take response,

>> which is I don't believe someone can

steal your idea.

>> Say more. I love it. I just feel like if

I tried to write my version of Parks and

Wreck,

>> it wouldn't be Parks and Wreck. It would

be something else.

>> Even if we all have the same like idea,

it's it's going to be different because

it's coming from two completely

different writers. There's no way to

copy and paste

>> an idea. And also, artists, I believe,

are often times in the same wave.

There's a reason why sometimes you see

there's a lot of vampire stuff happening

right now. There's a lot of horror going

on over here. And and it's just because

artists are sort of in their their silo.

They're doing their thing and then they

kind of decide, oh, I want to write this

or this or this is this is very similar

to this thing.

>> I just don't buy it.

>> Well, what I love about it is it's like

it's the opposite of grasping energy,

right? Which is like I have this idea.

The idea is so important. It's my one

idea. And also I I as I've gotten older,

I feel like the idea is part of part of

it, but so much of it is people in

process, too. like an idea can only go

so far,

>> right?

>> And it's just in thinking about the

theme for this pod today, I was thinking

about just that cuz I feel like that

statement kind of defines your career.

>> Like you you do so many different

things. You produce, you write, you act,

you know, you're you do a podcast, you

you're in theater, you're in TV. Like,

you have this this way of moving through

the world creatively that doesn't feel

like your last idea was your best idea

and that you're grasping too hard on any

one thing. Would you think that's would

you say that's true?

>> Yeah, I think that's really beautifully

put and thank you for saying that. I

receive it. Uh I think that I think

you're right. I think people want to

protect what they have. Um, and there

have been like big cases about people

saying this was stolen from this, this

was there's those things out there, but

I just sort of feel like I'm always

evolving as a person. So therefore, the

work should be evolving as well. I feel

like sometimes you see artists and they

just keep kind of doing the same thing

and just sort of similar. And sometimes

that works for people, but I think for

me, I want my art to always reflect

where I am in my life

>> and I want to be in a different place in

my life.

>> And you're you're never a snob.

>> No.

But you know, like you like what you

like and you like it passionately and

then you make things like you're kind of

high low in and what you do and what you

make. And also what I love about you is

you love TV.

>> I I'm obsessed with television. Yeah. I

mean

>> I know cuz it raised us. It raised

>> literally it was it was like you know I

say two parent household my mom and the

television. I mean

>> what were you watching when you were

young? Like what was the on TV? You

know, it's interesting going like I was

a kid in the 90s and I think that was a

really interesting time for television.

A lot of sitcoms happening. Yeah.

>> We got Perfect Strangers. You got Okay.

The Cosby Show, A Different World

obviously, but also you had stuff like

Martin and and Living Single and also in

Living Color. Um, and also we had Nick

at Night where we could watch the old

shows like Dick Van Dyke show like you

know obviously the Mary Tyler Moore show

which were you watching that Mary

>> you know what's interesting I didn't

really It's interesting like like

certain music you can't hear like when

you're young jazz doesn't make sense to

you

>> yes

>> you can't hear it and I think with Mary

and especially as I got older and I

started to watch Friends and Will and

Grace Will and Grace has a sort of speed

to it

>> and um and I think with Mary Tammore it

it took me a beat because it was a

little bit like jazz it was it was kind

slow like I mean like Chuckles bites the

dust is one punchline like like they're

like we're gonna hold it's like edging

for comedy. [laughter]

They're like we're not giving this to

you.

>> A lot of people might not know that you

produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary

and you and I talked about this because

we were both working on on like comedic

legends. I did one about Lucy and Desi

and and

>> Mary Tyler Moore is just this great

example I think of like what uh what you

talk about which is TV that felt like

ahead of its time and also just super

cozy.

>> Yeah.

>> What did you when you got to know her

and and and her work like more like it's

so well said that it's like a sound you

you have to get used to like a music you

have to get used to. When did you start

to understand her music and what made

you want to do that project?

>> Well, I think I didn't really understand

it until I was in college. Uh when I had

to sort of watch it because if you I

studied writing and producing and

television at Columbia College. I did

all that.

>> You wanted to be a TV writer at seven?

>> Yes, I did.

>> How did you know that was a job?

[laughter]

>> You're like, we thought people were just

at the TV talking

>> like veterinarian and astronaut.

>> I know. And fire person. Um I uh you

know I think I just I would see names in

the credits and I that's why I see Susan

Fels Hill and Debbie Allen. I knew their

names before I knew their faces.

>> Um and Event Lee before she was Lee

Bowser and of course I came to know all

these women. Thank God. U but I just saw

that show and I said I want to be a part

of this. And also I was aware that you

know my mother, my grandmother, my aunt,

the neighbors, we would all gather in my

grandmother's bedroom cuz that's where

the TV was and we would just sit and

watch TV. And it was it was very

communal.

I think it

didn't get it until I was in college and

I got the box set on VHS and like

watched the best and

>> I just sort of was fascinated by her as

a human being. So I read her memoir

after all uh when I was in college and

that's what really kind of sent me down

a rabbit hole. It was before you could

just like Google somebody.

>> Totally.

>> You had to read about them and her

memoir is so well written. It's a little

I think it may be out of print. and they

might have brought it back. But anyway,

After all is a great memoir where she

talks about being an alcoholic, uh being

the daughter of an alcoholic. Uh she

talks about losing her son to an

accidental suicide, losing her brother

to cancer, losing her little sister to a

suicide. I mean, she the woman that

turned the world on with her smile dealt

with a lot of dark things in her life.

And that to me that that sort of

justosition was really fascinating. And

I was just fascinated by this person. I

think, you know, for what she did for

women in comedy, there was something

dainty about her but not precious. Yes.

And um and I definitely think you're

you're one of the descendants of Mary

Tyler Moore in terms of

>> Thanks for saying that. She was really

important in my house. My my you know I

had a young mom and my mom used to just

like love and laugh love that show and

laugh at that show. And it is really

interesting when you're a kid you're

paying attention what your parents are

laughing at.

>> Absolutely. And she Mary Tyler Moore was

reminded me of my mom because it was

like she was like

>> getting more you know what is it like

getting more flies with honey than like

she was sweet but she got her way and

that and her and Lou Grant like Nick

Offerman and I would talk a lot about

how Leslie and Ron had a very similar

kind of like you know gruff and you know

but Mary Mary was like and she was so

like

>> she was you could tell she was genuine

genuinely funny and that ensemble on

that show was so funny.

>> Yes. And I think that speaks to why

you're such a descendant of hers because

she knows what it is to allow people to

shine around her to not make it all

about her even though it's her show.

Yeah.

>> Uh but she wants everybody to shine, you

know. But

>> Carol Bernette was like that, too. Is

like that, too.

>> Like she always talks about wanting

people to to win and succeed.

>> You want to give them the scene if you

need to. I I love that you were

producing that and you and you mentioned

about watching it on VHS and I want to

talk about VHS because you used to work

at Blockbuster.

>> Yes, I did. [laughter] Okay,

>> people there are going to be

>> kids that don't know. Okay,

>> there are going to be people listening

right now that don't make me cry. Don't

[laughter] make me cry.

>> Don't understand how important

Blockbuster was. Well, first of all,

what was Blockbuster? [laughter] Because

you were like it was like

>> paradise. Okay,

>> it's a paradise.

>> A library of film and TV. Uh, it was

everything. I used to go there all the

time. That's where you had to go to

watch old stuff, sometimes see new

stuff. This is the crazy thing now. You

just sit on your couch and hit a button.

>> Then you had to go, you had to go hope

that in the new release wall that they

weren't all gone. You had to go up and

say, "Oh, did somebody return, you know

what I'm saying? Uh, Face Off. Did

somebody return face off?" No.

>> And I remember you go for you young

people listening, you would go, it was a

big date.

>> You get your popcorn, get your candy.

>> Yeah. You'd buy it there.

>> Yeah. You would. Yeah. And you'd go

often with like friends or a date and

you'd stand in front of a giant wall of

titles.

>> Yeah.

>> Just the sleeve.

>> Yeah.

>> And you'd bring the sleeve over to the

thing and like if it was there, it

usually meant that they had it. But

sometimes they didn't. And they were

like, "We're out."

>> Most of the time they didn't. It was a

popular movie. You coming in late on a

Sunday like, "Do y'all have uh

[laughter]

>> you have Jurassic Park?

>> Jurassic Park. You have the latest?" No,

I don't. I got the old one. Okay, cool.

>> You're right. And then and then you'd

look and you'd want to get face off and

you wouldn't they wouldn't have it. So

you'd be like, "What other John stuff do

you have?"

>> Okay. What else do [laughter] you have?

Like, okay, cool. You got powder. Okay,

what's happening? I don't know. Like,

it's just like the most random. It's

It's how I got my taste. I would just

like rent things based on the cover. I'm

like, I'll rent this. I'll watch.

>> Did you have to deal with like the

blockbuster guys who like the you know,

there was like like the mini Quinton

Tarantinos of the world [laughter]

who came up who were like who were like

directors or want to be and they wanted

to talk to you about film and school

you?

>> Okay. [laughter] Not in Chicago like

Okay.

They were like more so just like very

obsessed with whatever they were

obsessed with. But it was interesting

people coming in there, you know, it's

like it was families. We also get mom

saying like, "Can my son watch this?"

[laughter]

And you're like, "Uh, wow. Huh?" Like,

"Is he into violence and sex? I don't

know. I don't know if he should be

[laughter] watching Jungle Fever." Um, I

don't know. But no, a lot of parents

really were concerned about what the the

movie was and what was happening. And I

just was like, it depends on how you

want to raise your children. [laughter]

To be honest with you, I don't want to

be a part of this conversation.

>> And you got Blockbuster. You were so

tight with Blockbuster. You were so good

at being a Blockbuster person [laughter]

at Blockbuster

>> employee.

>> Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys

party? Did the Blockbuster employees

party a lot?

>> The one in LA we definitely got into

some trouble. Like the when I

transferred,

>> you got transferred.

>> Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean,

which is which is insane. That speaks to

[laughter] who I am. I said, "Look, I

want to keep this job. transfer me to

the one in LA. [laughter] And they did.

And they did. And it's like that.

>> You must have been an awesome employee.

>> Oh, I was the best. I was like on top of

it. Come on. I'm like going through the

return bin, making sure it's empty,

>> you know, talking to people about

movies, making recommendations. Like the

LA one was popping.

>> And then you get to LA because why do

you want to go to LA? Because you want

to be acting and writing and you want

>> I went there because there's a semester

in LA program through Columbia College

in Chicago where they send like 12

students to go to Los Angeles to be on a

a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec

scripts. People don't do that anymore

where you write a script of a show that

already exists to see you can match the

voice. And the crazy thing is I could

never crack Parks and Wreck, but I did a

30 Rock spec and I did a Modern Family

spec. And I loved Parks and Wreck, but I

just could not

>> I couldn't grab that voice. I could I

just sort of couldn't do it. And and for

lack of trying, what you have to kind of

do is sit in your studio apartment and

try to like come up like what's a A

story, what's a B story, what's a this.

And I was able to kind of like play with

those characters a little bit more on 30

Rock than I kind of

>> 30 had like speaking of rhythm had like

a really percussive specific very funny

joke per ratio kind of situation.

>> I think he had a lot of fun with the

Tracy thing. You know what I'm saying?

Like [laughter] I think my my story for

him was like he he uh he promised that

Obama was going to be at his birthday

party and uh [laughter]

but yeah that got me out to LA like

writing those spec scripts and stuff

like that and um being on lots and being

an assistant and and being an intern.

>> Well then you assisted Gina Prince

Blewood who is

>> Bwood. She said there's no L in it. It's

like Python. I when I was her assistant

for two years I have to always help

people say her last name is the most

intense. Okay. Like it's like think

about python and wood and put a b in

front of it. Bywood.

>> So you're an assistant for Gina Prince

Bwood.

>> There you go.

>> Okay, Gina, I love your work.

>> Yes. Come on. [laughter] She's going to

be so happy. Come on. Love basketball.

Secret Life of Be. Let's go.

>> Incredible. We had Regina Hall on. We

had Viola talking about Woman King.

>> Oh, come on. When is Gina getting here?

>> I would love to talk about cuz she did

Children of Blood and Bone.

>> What What did you learn from her? Like

what did you learn about being a boss

from her?

>> My god, so much. So much.

>> She's so talented. Okay. So, Gina is

very cool and I would watch her navigate

certain situations and she would never

raise her voice, she would never lose

her temper. Um, and I think also it's so

funny thinking about Mary Tyler Moore,

if you at the top of that documentary,

this guy is asking her this very

offensive like question like, can a

woman have it all? Can a woman be

married and have a child and have a

career? And the thing is is that Mary

kind of just sits there in the cut and

just responds in a way that's so

eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a

version of that for me in terms of in

person in real time where people would

challenge her authority or would ask her

if she really knew what she was doing

and Gina would just never be like

frazzled by it. She would just sort of

be calm, respond and show up and let the

work speak for itself. And so that's

what I really learned from her is like

don't lose your temper, let the work

speak for itself. And um yeah, just

don't ever lose your cool.

>> Um you talk about Aziz.

>> Yes. You talk about getting the part in

Master of None, which is where most

people met you. Like the world kind of

got to know you,

>> but you mentioned Allison Jones.

>> Oh, well,

>> so Allison Jones, who is Alison Jones

for people who don't know,

>> she's a iconic casting director. Yeah.

>> And she's someone who's discovered many

talents and I'm one of them. Um, I give

Aziz credit for sure, but he in a really

cool way when he was casting the what

used to be called the Untitled Aziz

Ansari Project,

>> he said, "I want to just meet with

people before I read with them." Um, and

he said, "I want to meet interesting

people." And and Allison had met with

me, you know, like that year, earlier

that year, cuz she saw something I put

on the internet, which was like this

pilot presentation, which would

ultimately become 20s, which I was not

in because again, no desire to be an

actor. Uh, but

>> why no desire? I think because and it's

still my biggest goal is to be a great

television writer.

>> That's that's really all I ever wanted

to be. Obviously, yes. Starting from

when I was young, I never thought I

wanted to be on the screen. I think I

always wanted to be the person writing

the words that they said.

>> Yes.

>> And

>> that was just always what it was. And I

admire actors a great deal. I love a a

great TV star, a great movie star. I

just didn't want that pressure that came

with it and and all that comes with that

because it's a lot. And um and so I

>> when I wrote the pilot presentation for

20s, it was it was a

>> I was writing a thinly veiled version of

my 20s and myself and what and my

friends and all that. And so it got it

got a little you know buzz and people

were talking about it and I got a call

that Allison Jones wanted to meet with

me. I didn't even know who she was.

>> I didn't I was like why does a casting

director want to meet with me? I'm not

casting anything.

>> And when I went into I walked into her

office, of course, I walked by the

poster for Freaks and Geeks. I walk by

the poster for VEP. I walk by the poster

for Bridesmaids. And I'm like, okay,

this person [laughter]

uh clearly she's she knows when the star

walks into her office. And so I sat with

her and we talked about television and

what we like to watch. And and what I

think what I kind of understood in that

moment is that Allison kind of picked up

on my taste being very varied and sort

of wellrounded. We talked about Ma. We

talked about Martin and we talked about

all these different things and she was

like "Okay."

>> And then she asked me, "How did I have

any desire to be an actor?" And I said,

"No."

>> And she said, "Okay, do you mind if I

bring you in for some things?" And I

said, "Sure." And she did. She brought

me in for an episode of VEP, which I

completely failed cuz Julia Lou Drifus

was in the room and reading with me. And

I was like, "Oh, no. I I can't. No, this

is not about to happen. I don't know

[laughter] what's going on."

>> Uh, and were you nerv you were nervous?

>> I didn't know Julia was going to be in

there.

>> Right.

>> And so I was like, "What?" Right. You

walked in and then you were like,

>> I've since become friends with Julia. I

love her. Her voice is in the Mary Tamor

doc. Very grateful. She's amazing. Let's

work together. Okay, bet. But but what

was cool about Allison Jones is that

she's like, "Okay, I'm not worried about

that. Bring you in again for um the

comeback, season [clears throat] two,

right?"

>> And I'm a person that had the the

comeback season one on DVD, watched it

with the director's commentary, listened

to Lisa and Michael talk about their

process and figuring out value chair. I

was studying, okay,

>> that series and all that it was cuz I

knew when I was watching the comeback,

when I was in college in Chicago, still

living with my mom, I was like, "This is

something different and new and this is

crazy that she's coming from Friends and

then he's coming from Sex in the City

and they're doing this." Totally

>> understood. Got it. I I I got that at

that moment.

>> And the depiction of of television

writers in that show LIKE [laughter]

>> it's like how much are what are y'all

talking [ __ ] Like what's going on?

[laughter] but also for for I almost

said Valerie for Alisa Kudro to to also

give you a version of what an actress

can be an aging actress and what that

can look like and how that can feel and

the insecurities. It was crazy. So she

called me in first. It was interesting

because she was like, "Do you know what

do you know what the comeback is?" And I

said, "I I yeah, I'm yeah, I'm obsessed

with it." And she was like, "Okay, well

they're doing a second season." And I

said, "Okay, what?" [laughter]

And she was like, "You want to come in?

They're doing a press day. There's going

to be a bunch of reporters. I think

you'll be cool." So she comes in.

Luckily, Lisa nor Michael Patrick came

in the room. Thank God.

>> Yeah. Lesson learned. Don't be in the

room.

>> Don't Don't let them be in there. So,

she just put me on tape. I said like a

line and then I got the call that

Michael and Michael was directing that

episode and so he uh picked me. Thank

God. And that was actually my TV debut,

me being like one of the reporters for

her press conference or whatever. And so

me being on that set was it to me that

was one of those moments, one of those

God moments. That was a big moment for

me. And I remember I had a pitch for my

line of the way I could say it a little

bit better. And that's [clears throat]

always a tricky thing cuz I'm like, "Oh,

don't be that person." I got one line. I

have a thought on it. [laughter]

>> But but Michael Patrick King, to his

credit, who I love and he's been a

wonderful mentor of mine. He's also kind

of, you know, gotten on me a little bit

too and he thinks I'm being a little too

big for my britches. But he he heard it

and he said, "Yeah, that's better.

That's better. That's better." And then

of course later um Allison was talking

to Aziz and she he said, "Who are some

interesting people?" And she said, "Oh,

I think you should be leaning away." And

that's how I literally went to his home,

literally pulled up to his house, walked

in, sat with him and Allan

was a writer on Park, created

>> Master of None.

>> Yes. I mean, those two. Uh, and I just

sat with him and I think I was prepared

for that moment because it was weird

because I was so used to doing staffing

meetings.

>> Yeah. And

>> so what for people that don't know, like

a staffing meeting when you're a writer

and you're trying to get a job, you kind

of do like a general meeting.

>> Yeah. you sit and talk about yourself

and you like you know you they've often

read a script of yours whether it be a

spec or an original and they talk about

that talk about your life and I just sat

in front of them and I was not unlike

this I was very comfortable in my skin I

just fallen in love with somebody I was

talking about all kind of stuff

>> and I and they just were kind of we

talked like 30 minutes and three of us

and then that was it and then I got a

call that he wanted me to come read with

him

>> it's so interesting you're talking about

writers taking meetings because I think

for people that are listening like I

don't think enough people know that

writing for television A lot of it is

about like will you be a person that

people just want in the room.

>> That's right. That's right. You got to

be chill. You got to be laidback. You

got to be a team player. You got to know

when to be quiet. You got to know when

to speak up. You got to know the

hierarchy. You got to know the politics

of the world.

>> Have you always known how to do that?

>> You're so naturally good at it, Lena.

>> I mean, I'm I know how to how to play my

position. And I've been I've been I was

a staff writer twice before I sold my

own show. Right. So when you're a staff

writer, you really are there just to

you're you're a helping hand, you know,

and you can't and also what I learned is

that it's not your job to fix the show.

>> And a lot of people come in there going,

"Okay, I got it. I [laughter] know how

to get us that Emmy." You know what I'm

saying? It was never never that. Even

when I did get handed an episode to

write obviously in season two of Master

of None, which became the Thanksgiving

episode.

>> Which one of the Emmy?

>> Oh, I'm very grateful. First black woman

ever standing comedy series. COME ON.

AZIZ KNEW WHAT was up. Uh,

[clears throat] you know, I didn't

actually want to write that episode

because I wanted to keep it separate. I

was a lot of people, oh yeah, you wrote

on Master like season one, I didn't

write on the show at all. Um, now mind

you, you know how it is when you're in

between takes and you're talking like

Aziz is like, I'm putting that in. I'm

throwing that in. I'm like, okay, bet.

Cool. Yeah.

>> But with season two, when him and Allan

asked, well, how did you come out? And I

told them the story. They were like,

okay, that's an episode. We got to do

that. And I was like, okay, cool. Y'all

write it. Um, I'm going to go do the

Spielberg movie. And Aziz, I'll never

forget, he said, he said, "If you don't

co-write this, we're not doing the

episode." I just was feeling like not

overwhelmed, but I was about to go do

Ready Player One and I was going to be

in London, and that was my first

feature, and I didn't want to mess that

up.

>> I mean, come on. Come on. Where do you

go from there? But he came to London to

his credit, and we uh a weekend when I

was not working, and we sat in the hotel

room, his hotel room, and just like two

days

>> cranked it out. knocked it out.

>> When when you were um when you were like

digging deep for that story, your story,

did you have any like did you think

about

>> what you wanted to keep for yourself and

what you wanted to give to the show?

It's it's tricky, right? Like

>> I mean it's such a beautiful episode and

it's so um

>> and it and it really spoke to so and

Angela

>> Oh my come Angela Basset. Are you

kidding me?

>> Come on. Just talk about I was like

she's going to say no. I was like,

there's no way she comes to the show.

You

>> had not met her. You didn't

>> had not met her. Obviously obsessed with

her. You know, as he and I both are

obsessed with Jackson 5, American Dream.

That's why we named the character

Katherine. Like, but I just was like,

she's not going to do it, bro. I was

like, you're nuts. Molina Matsucas

directed the episode beautifully. Kim

Whitley is an episode.

>> What did I want to keep? I I think what

I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I

could on the page.

>> Yeah. And I think what was so

interesting about it, which I think

surprised Allen and A disease, they

thought that religion was a big part of

my story in terms of why my family

wasn't really

>> uh that uh embracing of my sexuality.

But it really it was more about what

would the neighbors think, not what what

would God think.

>> And and that was something that was

unique. And one of my favorite moments

in the episode is uh not unlike in real

life when I told my mom I was gay. She

looked around to see if anybody heard

like are we in a diner? It's like these

are strangers. Like who who cares what

these other people think? And I think

that spoke so much to I don't know like

who I am. It doesn't I I don't think me

being queer makes me more noble, more

special, more interesting.

>> And it's just a part of my humanity.

>> And I think that's what I'm really

trying to do in that scene is trying to

>> show my mother her own child's humanity.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, it so

beautifully done. so recognized for such

like it it was recognized for such

special work. Congratulations on winning

that Emmy. Beautiful speech, too. Your

Emmy speech was so good. You were so

cool and relaxed, Lena. YOU WERE UP

THERE LIKE LIKE YOU JUST LIKE no nerves.

>> Yo, I mean, well, look, it's it's you

never know. You know how this goes.

You never [laughter]

>> But you never know. And some people it

there were it's interesting cuz

>> But you're relaxing. You relax people.

>> Wow. I appreciate

>> because you feel relaxed. Is that true?

Are you relaxed inside your head? Do

>> you know what I mean?

>> Yeah, I know what you I I think there

was a lot of talk. I was up against two

episodes of Atlanta, by the way. One and

that was like

>> those were tough years. Competitive

years.

>> Okay. But I'll give it to Donald Glover.

We were at the Chateau. I'll never

forget it. The night before, you know,

all these parties the night before. And

Donald said to me with very confidence

and a cool about him that he has. He

said, "You're going to take the writing

one. You're going to take it." And I was

like, "I don't know, man." I was like,

"I don't know." He said, "No, you got

it." He's like, "You got it." And um

Sterling K. Brown was like, "You're

going to take it." So, I'm getting this

weird. People are like, "You got it.

It's yours. You got it." I'm going like,

"Oh,

>> it's yours to lose now.

>> I know it's yours to lose." I was like,

"Ah." And then, you know, the history

that came with it to be, you know, and

you just had Mindy here. She's one of

the first women of color to be nominated

in that category for outstanding writing

in a comedy series of episode of The

Office. And and Wanda Sykes won, but for

sketch comedy writing, which was for for

Chris Rock Show. And so when they told

me when the Academy said, "No, you're

the first African-American woman to ever

be nominated for outstanding writing in

a comedy series uh for the Prime Time

Emmy Award," I was like, "Oh, huh.

Okay."

>> And I think that just it it brought a

different level of weight to it. Yeah.

And I think what I wanted to do, I did

think about Halle Berry um winning that

Oscar and I remember watching and

[snorts] crying. Yeah.

>> And it was I was I was in Chicago so it

was late as hell. It was like my mom had

gone to bed. She said, "I hope she will

hope the black woman win."

>> I was like, "I know. We'll see." And and

I remembered that speech and she was

very emotional and and rightfully so.

But I loved how she sort of channeled

the women that had come before her, you

know. And I think what I wanted to do

was to honor Susan Fails Hill, Debbie

Allen, Bey Bowser, Junior Prince

Berther, all these women that had

>> been in television writer rooms that had

influenced me and and also wanted it to

be a moment for the queer community as

well for us to be seen and um and just

for for black women that wanted to write

TV comedy. Totally.

And you've spoken about this too, which

is like comedy, which also just, you

know, I think like any any person that

feels like they have to um any person

that feels like they're representing a

lot of history and a lot of people,

>> that isn't always the easiest thing for

comedy,

>> right? [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Because comedy is like there's nothing

worse than being like, I'm going to

write something very important like

what? I mean, come on.

>> Like, you know, you're like, I'm going

to write a classic sketch [laughter] for

white women everywhere. Um,

>> yeah, I'm gonna change some minds with

my Connie is like,

>> "Right, [laughter]

it's like, um, I'm glad that that

episode meant so much to so many

people." And And

>> you must have people all the time coming

up and talking to you about it, right?

>> That's what you wouldn't expect. A lot

of straight white dudes say they love

it, which is always fascinating to me.

>> I bet you have a lot of straight white

dude fans.

>> I do, interestingly enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz they love Master of N. They

love Ready Player One.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

What was it like working with Stephen

Spielberg?

>> Oh my god.

>> We got to interview him for the Coleman

Domingo episode. He gave Coleman a

question and um

>> I I was saying to him like,

>> you know, it was thanks for giving me

all of my memories.

>> Yeah. Thank you for happy childhood.

>> Yeah. Like all everything you've ever

done is in my head forever. Yeah.

>> But what was he like to be what was it

like to be directed by him?

>> He's like the best dad you could ever

ask for. Um, and I always say he's a

giant that doesn't make you feel small.

>> That's that's who he is. He's very aware

of his

>> of his bigness. He's aware of the

history that walks into the room when he

does.

>> And he's really good at disarming people

and uh and making you not be nervous

about it. And he was not in the room as

well when I auditioned for Ready Player

One. Thank God he hired me off of a tape

like you know like I came in obviously

for um Ellen Lewis uh who's also another

iconic uh casting director and I could

tell when I walked in the room and was

just very comfortable that she saw

something. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And then brought me in again and and I

think she had a conversation with

Stephen and I think [snorts] that was a

part of how I got in that film. And but

[clears throat] he just

>> he took to me and it's so funny. There's

a level of trust that was there before

even getting on the set. And he one day

he said, "Lena, I could tell you to like

run off this cliff and you would do it."

I said, "Yep, [laughter]

yep." That's how much I trusted him and

you will you will you'll follow him till

the end of the earth because you know

that his heart is in the right place.

you know that he wants to make something

classic, something iconic.

>> I feel like you like when there's like a

strong leader.

>> I do, actually. Relax. Yeah. And I I

sort of like when a person is leading

with their heart.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and um and and just sort of

has everybody's best interest, you know,

in mind.

>> Are you the kind of person if there's no

leader, it'll be you?

>> You know, look, it depends [laughter] on

it depends on the situation. It's like,

do I need to get in here? Because I

don't want to feel like I have to

control everything. I don't want to be

that person.

>> Why not? [laughter] You're like, uh, you

know,

>> if you seems like you know how to do it,

so I mean, somebody's got to do it.

>> I mean, I So, first of all, a lot of my

friends were like, "Oh, really? You

don't want to control everything?"

>> Like, like a like a trip. If you're

going on a trip with your friends, are

you the person that plans the trip?

>> I want to sort of curate the experience

more so than control it, which is the

same thing. Okay. Got it. I'm in therapy

right now. [laughter] Got it. This is me

creating words. Lita, you're you're

controlling. You're curating it. But I

but see I love that because I I to

that's your love language,

>> right? I want to make sure we have a

good time.

>> I just want to talk about shy for a

second. Congratulations on it like

you're now it's done.

>> Yeah. Almost like whenever this airs

>> when this airs it will have been done.

>> Wonderful. Perfect.

>> And you are going to be like you will

have you know successfully wrapped eight

seasons of a show which never happens.

>> How long did parks and red go?

>> You can't even remember.

>> This is a good question. The fact that

you don't know off top

>> seven or eight.

>> So tells me everything I want to know.

It's the [laughter] seven or eight. This

is why we had to stop because people

were like you could have went 10. You

not knowing is everything I want in

life. Okay. I know Mary Tammore went

seven seasons. The first iteration of

second city went six.

>> Uh Will and Grace was eight seasons.

>> I think I think we did.

>> This is what happens when you make

television.

>> Also,

>> you forget.

>> This is called menopause. [laughter]

>> I'm Perry. I'm Perry. Here we go. I'm

Carrie. I'm Carrie.

>> Come on. [screaming] Come on. It's so

fun. Look. Nice sweats.

>> Oh my god. It's so great.

>> Nice sweats, baby.

>> And Parks and Wreck had seven seasons.

>> Wow. So, you're very married Tammore.

Okay. I'm one more one more than you

>> and Yeah. And you guys did eight. And

you know, um, people might not know

>> extended season. Season six was 16

episodes.

>> I that that I I've heard you talk about

that where they were like, we love it

more. And you're like, this is so great.

Yay. nightmare

>> because people don't me took me out. I'm

like, I like 10, baby. I like 10 cable.

What are we doing?

>> When you We used to do 20. We We had

really uneven seasons. Like we had six

seasons. six episodes the first season

and then

21

and then 24 and then 16 and then

>> at the time we I think we were in the

20s and to do 20 episodes of TV as

people will probably notice from episode

14 [laughter]

>> 14 got a little goofy

>> a little goofy

>> cuz you you start an arc that ends like

you know at about episode 11 or 12 and

then you got to kind of start another

one that's going to take you to the end

of the season and in between you're like

let's have an episode where we're all

like you know

>> just what did treat yourself happen

though?

>> Great question.

>> Just cuz like that feels like you as an

audience member you wonder is that y'all

just being tired and landing on

something iconic or is [laughter] it

like

>> we're this is something we we we think

could actually really take

>> season 4 episode 4. So, we were a little

fresh. We were still a little fresh.

>> Yeah, that that feels about right.

>> Yeah,

>> cuz that that was something that just it

just stuck and

>> it's still I still get those gifts from

people like they're just like treat

yourself 2011.

>> Come on, man. What? [laughter]

>> And we still like we we'll say it like

>> by Alan Yang that episode.

>> Come on, Alan Yang. That's a good one.

>> And um congratulations on a incredible

run.

>> Thank you so much. I mean it does not

happen anymore.

>> I know.

>> And it is the Moheakans.

>> Yeah. It's so true. And and you know

like you also you we didn't even really

talk about it but you know we both spent

time in Chicago. You were born in

Chicago.

>> It's such a love letter to that city.

And it's also like just like the city.

It's over the past eight years the show

and its relationship to the city has

changed. Like

>> it it's it's

Do you have people from Chicago feel

like real ownership of that show? How do

they talk to you about the show when

they talk to you about it?

>> I mean, they're mad that it's going

away.

>> They're like, "What? Just do it

forever?" I'm like, "I don't know if I

could do that." [laughter]

>> Uh

I was like, "Well, do some other stuff."

>> But they feel like these characters are

their family. Yeah.

>> And uh they feel very connected to them.

I remember when Parks and Rec went when

when uh you guys closed the curtains and

you guys were doing all the press and

and I remember watching all those

interviews and and watching all of you

because there was a person that

>> watched the entire series. It does feel

like a part of you is like not going to

be there anymore. And so and

>> like you're going to miss the

characters.

>> You're going to miss the characters. I'm

going to miss the people, the writers.

You know how that is. It's just it's a

family. It becomes a family even though

it's it could be dysfunctional sometimes

and it's work but you realize how

special that is to make something that

the world watches and that people care

about.

>> Uh I want to do a very quick speed round

about Chicago. Coldest you've ever been.

>> Oh my god. Let me tell you something.

Winters as you know in Chicago

>> are just

>> relentless. They're they relentless.

>> They they test you. I think it's why I'm

so cool. I

>> I I think you're right. I think that

there's like a Midwestern thing. First

of all, nobody ever talks about the

weather

>> because it's like what's the point?

>> It's like accept it, deal with it.

>> Yeah. Like no one walks around saying

it's cold. Like

>> I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago. Okay.

In on the train.

>> Yes.

>> In the cold weather walking from the

train station to my home.

>> Yeah.

>> Like

>> you don't don't don't talk to me. Like I

don't nothing scares me. Like I'm not

bothered by you or your attitude. Like

I've had to walk in snow to get to where

I had to go on a train, on a bus, like

waiting on a bus in the cold.

>> Yes.

>> Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it.

>> Okay. Best concert or best music you've

ever seen there.

>> The best concert. Oh, see here's the

deal. I got to do two.

>> Okay.

>> Prince and Whitney.

>> Oh my. What?

>> I know. But here's the deal.

>> I would have loved to

>> talk about musicality. Here's here's the

deal. A big influence my mom had on me.

She did not like the fact that I

couldn't hear Prince when I was young.

>> I heard you talk about this. I love

this. Say that. Say

>> I'm not I just didn't get it. And she

would play Prince a lot.

>> Well, you might have also been like like

nobody wants to like be into what their

mom is into. Even if they have the

coolest mom, [laughter] the coolest mom.

Like if you're like this is really

great. Your kids just like they want to

be their own person. Maybe was that

>> I don't know. I don't know. It just she

would play him a lot which like makes

sense now. you think about in the car in

the house and I just was like a young

person that just said I don't what is

this what's happening and so now fast

forward he's coming to Chicago

>> and I'm in college and she's like you're

coming

>> and I said why would I want to go to a

concert of somebody whose music I don't

like

>> and she said because you don't

understand and you need to understand

and no child of mine is not going to be

a fan of friend I [snorts] mean this is

really she's not joking her her friend

Mo'Nique they in the front seat I'm in

the back upset and we're going I think

it's like United Center or something. I

don't know.

>> And we pull up and I go into this

concert and I am like baptized in a way

by his music and I hear it for the first

time.

>> Wow.

>> Live and I'm like standing with my mom

and her friend. They're just having the

best time. And I'm just just in awe and

and um and we have a I still have a

t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that

concert. I still have it. And I walked

out of there different

>> and I went and bought all the then you

can go to record store. I went and

bought all the records and was like

listening to everything.

>> You got all the [laughter]

>> watch Purple Rain. Oh, it just really

was educated and it was one of those

things where I was really grateful that

she was like you need to know what this

is. And then fast forward I'm in LA and

he does a whole like, you know, um

ascent at the forum and for a while and

I would go to those concerts and like

listen and

>> Yeah. And I have him tattooed on the

back of my leg now. Like I have a prince

tattoo on the back of my leg. And then

Whitney Houston, which I also have her

tattooed here on my arm. Paparazzi photo

of her sticking her tongue out.

>> Um I'm just I've been a a Whitney girl

since, you know, her greatest love of

all. And I'm not alone in that. You

know, growing up in the '9s and being

born in the ' 80s, she was it.

>> She was it.

>> There was no There was no one else.

There is nothing else. And I just

remember

being in the same

and my love is your love really was like

a comeback. Speaking of the comeback, it

was her sort of coming back and saying

like, I'm not done yet. I'm not done.

You know, we got we we going I'm I'm

still here and I still have a voice and

I still matter.

>> And I didn't even understand the

significance of that, you know, as a

young person. I remember like, oh, we

coming out with new music. What? Oh,

man. It ain't the greatest hits. It's

just she's coming out with some new

stuff and and that was even really

important for me to see that for her to

say this is where I am now in my life

and I'm going to be rocking with W

Clefft and Missy Elliot and Rodney

Jerkens and Lauren Hill. Um, and these

people aren't who they are without me

being who I am.

>> And and I remember that album and those

videos and and me just feeling really

and I have a t-shirt from that one which

I which I wear often and I it's

something about those those those shirts

and those when you go to concerts like

grab grab a t-shirt do something cuz you

never so many concerts I like I regret

like my one of my I went to like New

Edition was one of my first concerts.

>> Come on. That's why we love you.

>> God I

>> you can come to the cookout. You're

coming. You're there. You're awesome. I

mean, you're you're you're with us. We

love you,

>> Ronnie. Bobby, Ricky, and Mike.

[laughter]

>> Come on.

>> My little girl. Who cares?

Um but

[laughter]

>> but man, I wish I had a t-shirt.

>> I went to a Janet Jackson concert in

Chicago. The Rhythm Nation. I still have

that one.

>> Like the the merch shirts, there's

something of it's a it's a piece of

history. The fact that I can still fit

my damn Rhythm Nation shirt.

Well, can I talk to you about the way

you dress for a second? Cuz I [laughter]

>> Yeah, do it.

>> Because I love it.

>> Thank you.

>> And you have such good style. Honestly,

a lot of times when I see you at events,

I'm a little jealous of how comfortable

you look compared to everybody else.

>> It's the perk of being a lesbian.

>> Yeah. So many perks. We don't have to

deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the

main one.

>> We really are looking at very hard.

[laughter]

HARDEST Jenna's ever laugh. [laughter]

>> I mean,

>> that male ego [laughter] got

so true.

>> It's so true. And like the your style, I

love your style and and and it's very

you. It's really like

>> it's it's um it's always changing. It's

always interesting. It is like always

right for the event that you're at, but

you are never like it's just like you as

a person, you're just never trying too

hard and it's always cool.

>> Thank you so much.

>> And do you have a stylist? You pick all

this stuff yourself?

>> Well, it's so funny cuz I do I Jason

Balden who is Cynthia is like he's

actually her style. He would joke and be

like, Lena, I'm your stylist too

sometimes.

>> But he they actually doing real work.

They like doing stuff and having

conversations. it. So, RuPaul always

says, "Everybody's in drag

>> and and I think for me, I want to feel

>> how on the outside, how I feel on the

inside." And I just feel comfortable

>> in in the way that I dress. And I always

want to feel comfortable.

>> Me, too.

>> I never want to feel like I'm trying to

be something I'm not or make someone

else feel comfortable. I don't want I

don't want someone else's comfort to to

to be a priority.

>> When did you figure out your own style?

When did you always have it? You know

what's so interesting? Because I'm doing

a clothing line right now called

Proximity. All right. Uh with with a

designer, her name is Knox and she's

from New York and she uh you know, I

like to wear cuz I just want to wear

designers that reflect who I am. She's a

queer black woman and we we're friends

and uh we were like and this is you

know, a part of what what she's doing.

Like she made this for me and I wore

this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing

it again. I like repeating things as

well. I'm just letting folks know that

like every outfit doesn't have to be new

or different. Um, but I think I sort of

I used to wear those t-shirts where

there was it was a whole time people

wearing t-shirts with like a whole

paragraph. It was like a little funny

joke. It was that was a thing I was

doing so much. I was like, "Lord, help

me." So glad I grew out of that.

>> But then I got into vintage like stuff

like vintage shirts and things like that

that meant something to me and I was

like, "Okay, cool." And then I got, you

know, making a little bit of money. I

was like, "Okay, cool. Get a little

designer thing here." There was a thing

where you wanted the designer brand

there right there so people know you

were in Valentino. Then you get older

and you realize, I don't want nobody to

know that I got Valentino on. Just let

it be. You know, as Rashita does quiet

luxury.

>> Yes.

>> You know, the white t-shirt cost $500.

>> I mean, listen, I'm always asking

Rashita. I'm like, what? Where does this

goat and she's like she's right now

she's in the biggest clothes I've ever

seen.

>> Okay.

>> Everything is gigantic Japanese.

>> Oh my god.

>> Everything. She cut She walks in. I'm

like, is this what we're doing now? It

looks incredible. Everything she's

wearing is incredible. She's so chic and

just easy. Like I I took a lot of tips

from her. I said, "Okay, do a little

plain little jacket, little this,

little." I steal I steal a little bit

with Rashidita. I'm like, "Okay,

Rasheed." Um, [laughter]

but I think you I think style is not

unlike your voice. So, you have to try

different things, find it over time. But

I do think my queerness does lend itself

to my style. A big part of it is because

I don't live under the male gaze.

>> I don't have this desire to to impress

dudes right?

or really even impress like women. I'm

just sort of I'm like what looks good to

me?

>> Well, this is kind of a segue, which is

you're you're you're the producer right

now on a show that is like all about

people who are

>> celebrating the way in which they've

discovered who they are. And it is

[clears throat] a show called Jelico

Ball.

>> This is true. And that is the Jell Ball.

>> That's the Jellico Ball. You're a

producer on it.

>> Yes. One of the co-producers. and talk

about um watching in real time people

like figuring out like how I want to how

I want to be in the world. Not only how

do I want to dress, but how I want to

move, how I want to be an artist. Like

um how did you get involved in working

with that show? What when did you first

see it and why did you want to be part

of it?

>> Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first.

She was here in New York and um went to

see that pack when it was off Broadway

and and she called and she said, "You

got to see the show. You got to come

down. You got to come to New York to

see." And I bet people might be like a

little intimidated when Cynthia Arivbo's

in the audience. That's a t that would

be I would be like

>> I think they were very excited and ready

to show off their uh [laughter]

their skills when she was there. She

guest judged over there at pack and so

she called me and she was like there was

there's something there's a level of

intensity in somebody's voice where

they're like no you need to come. And so

I was like okay. So I came saw and was

blown away and said okay well this

should transfer to Broadway. I hope and

if it does I said I think we should be

producers on it. And it wasn't the

easiest thing I think because you know

there's a lot of producers on in

Broadway shows and there's certain

requirements and things that people need

and we just said trust us like we need

to be a part of this because we want to

make sure everybody knows about it and

we want to get out there and like wave

the flag and be on this amazing podcast

and talk about it and all that that

stuff. And so we were grateful to the

lead producers that said, "Yeah, you

guys should come on and be a part of

this." And you know, speaking of

Blockbuster, I watched Paris's Burning,

that documentary, because it was on the

shelf and I saw it one day and I say,

I'm going to watch this doc and I never

stopped watching it and I kept

re-watching it again and again and

again. Um, and I was seeing what I

wanted to be. I was seeing these people

with these big personalities and saying

funny things. They're hilarious. If you

go back and watch Paris's Burning,

there's just joke, joke, joke. They're

not even trying. They're just being

hilarious. And I mean that's that to me

is like real love language is when

people like tease each other.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> It's like

>> yeah the white versions tease black

versions throw shade. You know what I'm

saying? It's like we're throwing shade.

We're like being fierce. We're talking

trash. And so I just loved that how the

what that Paris is burning really

obviously helped to influence you know

uh castel and also influence pose and

things like that. But to see Junior

Leasia who was in the the documentary

and a lot of people in the documentary

have since passed away uh for him to be

on that stage every night and being able

to feel that love and receive it. I'm

honored to to witness it and I've seen

it twice on obviously on Broadway,

obviously once on off Broadway and it's

something that just brings me so much

joy.

>> Well, we got to talk to the directors.

>> Oh, come on.

>> The Tony Awardwinning directors.

>> That's what they are now. They're the

best. And um we got to talk well behind

your back with them.

>> Oh my goodness. Because these two the

dynamic duo [laughter]

>> just I was very stressed. I felt like

they brought way too many relatives to

the Tony. [laughter]

>> Well, come on.

>> They had I know but they had a lot of

people in those seats and at one point

they were saying they had to talk to

everybody and I was like no you don't.

>> Look,

>> it's your night. Um [laughter] but they

but they but they spoke of course so

beautifully about just what you were

saying which is that you guys you know

you and Cynthia like used your currency

to get this show where it needed to be

and you saw something right away that

they that meant so much to them and that

you know that is kind of you in a

nutshell Lena like you are you are an

artist who really loves other artists.

you really support and like you like

what you like and you when you like

something you really want people to know

about it. Like you are,

>> you know, you're a mentor for so many

people and you're also just like never

forgetting that you're a fan and a

student at the same time. It's awesome.

>> Thank you.

>> And they love working with you. And um

they had a couple questions for you.

>> Oh my goodness. Ebony and Ivory.

[laughter]

>> Okay. And so Jaylen's question was, "Who

is the person that you see on the dance

floor or what kind of person do you see

on the dance floor that gets you excited

that makes you think this is going to be

a good party?"

>> Oh, like who do I if I see them on the

dance floor, it's going to be a good

time?

>> You know what I mean? Who are you

looking for?

>> Might not even be a specific person, but

a kind of person.

>> Wow.

>> A kind of party.

>> You know what's interesting? Because I I

love I love to dance, but I don't

necessarily need to be in the center. I

know cuz you're cool. So you just

[laughter]

>> I don't need to be in the center. I

know. I know.

>> I know. That's what cool people do.

[laughter] They dance on the side. They

dance on the side.

>> I'm on the side. I'm in the cut. You

know what I mean? Doing the two steps.

Oh. Oh.

>> Barely moving looking.

>> I get breaking a sweat.

>> You mean you're not break dancing in the

middle like the person that's like

puffing going for it? [laughter]

>> But you know what though? I [ __ ] with

those people though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Because you need that person.

>> Party pumper.

>> You need you need the Beyonce.

>> I'll tell you what I can bring to a

party. What's that?

>> I'll be the first one on the dance

floor.

>> Yeah, you will. Because you're not You

don't have any

>> care. And somebody's got to start it and

nobody wants to. And we've been to like

industry parties where it's like a great

DJ. Nobody's dancing. We got to start

this. Like what are we going to talk to

each other? [laughter]

>> Like enough of that. Let's

>> And I will I'll sacrifice myself and be

number one. hopefully a friend, but just

for you to cool. That's why I loved

reading uh Bossy Pants. I love that

section about you when Tina says like

when Amy got in there, it was like, "Oh,

things have changed. Things are going to

be different around here." Such a great

passage where she talks about you coming

to SNL. Uh and I think that's so

reflection of you at a party like you're

not afraid to

>> Well, I'd be embarrassed. I don't care.

>> Which is what makes you amazing.

>> But what who who do you like to see?

What type of person?

>> What type of person? Or like is there a

friend that you're like, "Okay, they're

here."

>> You know what? I like a person who can

actually dance like like I'm I'm not

skilled. You're not turn taught. We just

going off of the vibes.

>> Who's a good dancer?

>> Well, a lot of the cast from Cats like

we had after party and

>> I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not [laughter]

I'm not even doing a twostep over here."

I'm like, I'mma let y'all do what you

doing. Um Um

>> like Yeah. I think a lot of the drag

queens like are are doing a different

kind of vibe because they because they

know choreography.

>> Yes,

>> that's the thing. Like dancers who and

performers I really I really love

watching them cuz there's an art to it.

There's something to it.

>> I was saying earlier there it's like

magic.

>> It is. It is.

>> I like watching people dance. That's why

that's why I don't I I'm like I don't

want to get in the way. I don't I want

to just like catch a vibe, be a part of

the groove, but I love watching people

that actually know how to dance how to

dance cuz I could watch them all night.

>> Okay. And the last question today is

what are you cuz I know you love you

you're like a culture vulture. You keep

up.

>> Yeah.

>> What right now are you watching,

listening to? What are you into? Give me

some Rex.

>> It could be a video that you can't stop

watching. It could be

>> so much

>> and like let's let's let's let have it

be funny. Okay. I can't watch anymore. I

know you were going to say

>> I know. I'm about to go half man. Sorry.

>> Exactly. I was about to say you were

going to go half man and baby reindeer.

Okay. I'm looking to laugh.

>> I know. I know. Sorry. I know. I like I

think that's technically a comedy.

>> I know. I know. Oh god. Okay. Damn. Are

you a coup's therapy girl?

>> Okay. Couples therapy recent season.

[laughter]

[gasps]

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Okay. First of all, who do we want to

talk? [laughter]

What

>> I'll take it away from this specific

couple and just say in general what is

so good about couples therapy

>> I think is that you watch it and you're

like I got these two like you [laughter]

think you think you like you're always

proven a little wrong

>> every time oh my gosh

>> I am anyway like it's like I know what

this problem is this person [laughter]

this person you think you're good at

like therapy and then they start to talk

and you're like oh they're not here for

that they're here for the other thing

and also So I don't know what I'm

talking, you know, like I like we don't

know anyone's [ __ ]

>> I'm not smart. Like I'm not [laughter]

like she has a PhD.

>> Exactly. Like I love being proven wrong

cuz I'm like that guy is not right for

her and she's too whatever. [laughter]

And then it's like

>> you're that you're not you're you're

wrong. Like you're not you don't know.

>> And the way in which you watch how

communic how different everybody's

communication styles

>> styles are. Whoa.

>> Very different. Everybody should be

watching couples therapy.

>> I agree.

>> Whether you're in a relationship or not.

>> Absolutely right.

>> Okay.

>> You learn so much about yourself.

>> You learn so much. And I think

>> And those couples are awesome for

participating in it.

>> Oh my god. Yeah. Truly. Because what I

also learned is that we all have

childhood traumas

>> that

>> usually comes out around episode 4.

>> Uhhuh. Yeah. And it's never what you

expect.

>> Nope.

>> Ever. [laughter]

Um, and and you see how that is playing

out in their relationship.

>> Yeah.

>> And my hope is and then also, you know,

I've I've been therapized. I'm in

therapy. I need to say who my therapists

are everybody. Relax. But I I I've

learned a lot about myself in terms of

how I show up as an adult based on how I

was raised. I mean, it's so it sounds

very simple and easy to understand, but

you sometimes have to really question

your own behavior. like why did I do

this? Why did I behave this way? Why am

I struggling with boundaries? Like what

is that it? And it's like oh because I

didn't have well my mom didn't have

boundaries with me when I was a kid. And

so now I have to learn that for myself

as an adult or my my partner um has an

abandonment wound.

>> And so when [clears throat] I go quiet

or I leave without saying goodbye, it it

triggers her in a way that I wouldn't

think it would. And so and and that's

why I think um learning in therapy that

vulnerability is a strength

>> and a lot of people want to protect that

or I don't want to tell you this this

hard thing. And the thing I learned too

is like truth does no harm

>> in that. And so I've had to get really

honest with like people I love or or

saying like hey this is a part of me

that I'm ashamed of or I'm embarrassed

by but I want to say it out loud and see

where you stand. not to test you to see

if you'll stay, but rather so you know

exactly who I am and you can make an

informed decision about whether or not

you want to stay.

>> It's that's so well said and and you

Lena, you just said something that like

I watch it a lot to just get scripting

for how to say things.

>> Wow, that's great.

>> Because it's like sometimes I'll break

the window when there's a door right

next to it that's open. like you want to

get something out, but the way you say

it,

>> it's like it's it's good practice just

what you just said like, "Hey, I want to

share this thing with you and I want to

know how you feel about like just the

gentle way into the vulnerability is

like just practice cuz if you don't see

it, you know, if you don't see if you

don't have tools or practice to figure

out how to talk to people about how you

feel, then it just can be like either

shocking or like you said like we

withdraw or we like over. It's it's

humans are fascinating.

>> They would really and I think that's why

I love the show so much. And it's so

interesting because you know I hear

sometimes single people uh particularly

in this certain case is single women who

have a certain age and they're like I'm

single and only way I want a

relationship is if it brings joy to my

life or if it makes me happier. And it's

so funny because I always think that is

not how a relationship feels. [laughter]

Like that's not how that goes. Like if

you expected somebody to come and bring

just joy and happiness and fun and

romance like no. It's like imagine

looking in a mirror all the time.

>> Yeah. A a a real true relationship makes

you confront the stuff in your

>> you want to run away from.

>> Totally. We are fascinated with the

beginnings of things. We're fascinated

with the like young people, [laughter]

young love, people falling in love.

We're just so into it. And then

everybody gets there and then we never

ask them another question again. We

never talk to people who've been married

for 10 years and like how is it going?

What's going on? Whatever. We're just

like interested in who people are dating

or when they break up or whatever. But

the middle the in between is like nobody

even nobody talks about it.

>> Nobody asks any questions about it. And

it's the same way with like I'm finding

the same way with like middle age. Like

people are really fascinated with like

you know young people on the rise and

they're fascinated with like the gravy

toss of being the legend and you're like

there's a lot of middle here

>> where there's a lot of things happening.

>> That's true. You know I mean I'm 42 and

so I think [laughter]

>> little baby little tiny baby

>> 42 so cute.

>> Okay. [laughter]

>> No no no 42. 42.

>> 42. It's interesting. It's interesting.

>> Millennials are old now. [laughter]

>> I know.

>> It's weird.

>> I feel it. I'm like I'm a young elder.

I'm childless by choice.

>> Um have no desire to raise children. Um

but I think what you're saying in terms

of the the falling the the newness of

something. I think that to me is

something

>> I I do get a little frustrated with. We

romanticize the meat cute.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And and the meat cute's cool. It's

great. Yeah. But I think what I'm

learning so much is the com being

comfortable in the boredom.

>> Yes.

>> Comfortable in the quiet.

>> Or how about this? What is contentment?

Like what is contentment? Like

>> cuz familiarity breeds contempt.

>> That's right. And o we could talk about

this forever.

>> I know we got to plan. Because there's

[laughter] there's nothing like I mean

I'm sure you watch couples therapy. We

we'll wrap it up by saying couple

therapy can kind of feel like almost

like a board game where you're watching

after many seasons and then some like a

person will say something and their

partner will be like

>> and roll their eyes and you're like and

there it is. [laughter]

>> Couples therapy is so good.

>> It's just great. Like everybody that's

that's my big thing. Couples therapy.

And I'm trying to think if there's like

>> everybody just watch as much therapy as

I can.

>> I know. And like music I'm trying to

think. I don't have my phone, but like

please listen to um Tim's T Ms. amazing

singer. Phenomenal. She's great.

>> That Lauren Hill tribute.

>> Phenomenal.

>> Lauren had to get up there. Lauren said,

"I can't let y'all do a tribute without

me being a part of it." She said, "Let

me get up here and do my song." One

album, but technically people sleep on

Unplugged. Go listen to Lauren Hill

Unplugged back when MTV used to do that.

I love that album. Her voice is like

scratchy and she's real. She done been

through some stuff. It's like it's the

album post success.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Telling you about some [ __ ]

>> But God, it would have taken I would

have I wish I I wish there was like 10

more albums from her.

>> But see, here's the deal. We can't

demand labor.

>> I know. [laughter]

>> We have I know. We got to get out of

here. I know. I'm probably late for

another hang that I was supposed to have

and they're like, "What was you doing

hanging with Amy?" [laughter]

>> Classic. This is what we would do.

>> Thank you for coming and doing this. Was

so fun.

>> Thank you so much, Lena. Wait. That was

so fun. and I could have talked to you

forever and we talked about so many

great things and so for this Polar

Plunge I just want to remind everybody

how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you

haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was

well, she kind of broke into the scene

for us anyway in in a show called Fame

where she plays this incredible dance

teacher. And Debbie herself is a

choreographer, an actress and producer.

And she was Lydia Grant who was telling

Leroy to find the soul within him to

learn how to dance. And she has she's

she did a million episodes of a

different world. You can catch her

talking to Lena Waith on her podcast,

Legacy Talk. They have a incredible

conversation and she's the sister of

Felicia Rashad from the Cosby Show. I

mean, talent family up the wazoo. So,

Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I

love you. Uh, thank you for being um so

talented in so many things. Thank you

for listening. Thank you for doing the

podcast, Lena. And thanks everybody. And

we'll see you soon. Bye.

You've been listening to Good Hang. The

executive producers for this show are

Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and

me, Amy Polar. [music] The show is

produced by The Ringer and Paperkite.

For The Ringer, production by Jack

Wilson, Cat Spalain, [music] Kaia

McMullen, and Aia Xanerys. For

Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel

Levelvel, and Jenna [music] Weiss

Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.

really good. Hey