Transcript: Anne Lamott on Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Hello everyone and welcome to another

episode of Good Hang. Very excited to

have our guest on today. It is the great

writer Anne Lamott. And I know we've had

writers on before and authors, but this

is an author author. This is a writer

writer. You know what I mean? Anne

Lamott is

best-selling author who has written such

books as Bird by Bird and Traveling

Mercies and Operating Instructions. And

we're going to talk to Anne about so

many good things today. We're going to

talk about Jesus and we're also going to

talk about Mary. We're going to talk

about um

being a you know a a sweet and tender

kid in San Francisco trying to figure

out life. We're going to talk about

finding love with people who are

allergic to cats and you love cats and

what do you do about it? And we're going

to talk about her new book that she

wrote with that love, her husband Neil

Allen. And it is called good writing and

we're going to get into that. So lots to

discuss today with Anne and thrilled

that she's here. And you know, I wanted

to um

I wanted to find somebody who loved Anne

like I did and was a fan of her books.

And I figured why not go back to one of

my nearest and dearest friends and

friend of the pod, the one the only my

favorite writer Tina Fey.

Tina?

Tina Elizabeth Fey, are you there?

>> [music]

>> This episode is presented by Allstate.

Checking Allstate first could save you

hundreds on car insurance. Not checking

how long that recipe takes before you

start cooking? Well, that's how you

learn that simmer for 4 hours is buried

halfway down the page.

Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So

check Allstate first for an auto quote.

It could save you hundreds. You're in

good hands with Allstate. Potential

savings vary, subject to terms,

conditions, and availability. Allstate

North American Insurance Company and

affiliates Northbrook, Illinois.

>> Mayhem.

>> [music]

[music]

[singing]

>> Hi.

>> Hi.

>> Hi.

>> Betty, thank you for coming on again.

You are an official friend of the pod.

You've been on now, I think 14, 15

times.

>> I love it. I want The one time I came on

and remember I was all dressed up like

uh Gwyneth Paltrow and nobody Nobody

caught on that that was that was me.

>> [laughter]

>> Oh my god, you were so good.

>> I just do a really good Gwyneth Paltrow

impression.

>> [laughter]

>> Your hair looks incredible.

>> Thank you.

>> Is this a blowout?

>> This is a blowout and I'm spending a lot

There's a lot of breakage, but we're

just going to press through. We're going

to press through.

>> Are you at a point now where you're

getting a blowout even if you're not

working?

>> For my own sanity sometimes I go like

once a week like a 1950s lady. Also

because the thought of um

of walking around my apartment with wet

hair, I can't take it.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

>> Cuz I yeah, I can't do hair. This is

like something Anne might write about

cuz it's like exercise in hope and faith

and every time I air dry my hair, I

believe it's going to come out better.

And it never does.

>> Actually, Anne Lamott who, you know, is

an amazing writer. She's written

fiction, she's written memoir, she's

written She's like an essayist. She's

She's self-revealing. She She's written

in all different genres that I want to

talk to her about today.

She has also written about hair and like

her hair, her body, like coming to terms

with our like physical selves like in

and she and she's really funny about it.

Like how she

tries to reconcile like we all do like

her physical

parts.

>> [laughter]

>> I thought that was so interesting when

you were talking to Carol Burnett too

about, you know, how old do you feel?

She's like, I feel 11. Didn't she say

11?

>> 11.

>> Yeah, and I get that. And we do forget.

You There

there are times when you you are

absolutely feel that way and you just

and you absolutely forget about

the carcass that you're in

and how long it's been around.

>> I asked you to do this

um

first part because

you and I have talked about Anne Lamott

and how much we like her and like her

writing. And I think there will be

people listening to this pod today that

will be die-hard fans of hers and then

people that might be discovering her

work for the first time. If you were to

talk to somebody who had never read her

um how would you describe her as a

writer?

>> I would describe her writing as very

honest and funny

and um

it's like meeting

a new friend. When you meet a friend who

you instantly go, "Oh, you're you're one

of my people." You know, um because

she's so direct and she's so

Yeah, she's just so unguarded in her

memoirs. Um

and

I also

uh

I love the book Bird by Bird. I give

that book to people all the time. Anyone

interested in writing, any kid, you

know, going to college. It's just um

it's such a

helpful demystifying book about writing.

Um and yeah, do you know, Anne's books I

I've turned to them many times in my

adult life for

to to to take comfort. They they are a

comfort, you know, um Traveling Mercies

and Operating Instructions and Some

Assembly Required. At different phases

in your life that those books are all a

tremendous comfort and they make you

they help you feel less insane.

>> That's so true. Anne Lamott, I'm going

to find out more about her today. I've

been like

reading her stuff in preparation for

this. This is actually this is the first

writer I've ever I mean other than

comedy writers like yourself and others,

but like this is the first like

writer writer writer.

>> Prose writer.

>> Yeah. Prose writer, yes.

>> Yeah.

>> It's a little more daunting to have I

feel like I need to work harder.

>> No, I think you're just going to be

great. And I I think um

I was thinking too like, oh yeah, what

can I ask her? Um and I was torn like in

some ways I was like, well, I can't ask

her to like minister to us.

So I want to be like, Anne,

why is God taking only the good people?

Do you know, Anne? Why is what's

happening?

>> It's so funny you say that, Betty, cuz I

I feel like

my instinct is to keep saying, Anne, how

can we help help? Like, Anne, can you

tell me

>> Anne?

>> And I wonder I want to ask her like,

does she get that a lot? Does she get

people saying like, Anne, tell me how to

Cuz she does minister in her own way.

>> In her own way, but it it's probably

it's probably a bit tough to do on the

spot. Um can I tell you some things that

I I tried to make notes of like what I

might want to ask her. Okay.

>> Incredible, Tina. Best student ever.

>> you can cut any of this out cuz okay.

>> Please and thank you.

>> Let me see. And I got some new glasses.

Check them out.

>> Let's see.

>> They're a little more square.

>> Oh.

I love them.

>> All right, let's see. Um also I had sort

of a game that I thought maybe we could

>> Look at Tina doing all the work for me

yet again. This Guys, I just this is a

This is an example of Tina's love

language. I just want to point out.

You ask her to do, hey, can you jump on

for 15 minutes and Tina does research

and also offers up a game that she's

thought of. This is how she shows her

love and I am forever grateful for it.

Thank you.

>> Thank you for knowing that about me.

This is This is my love language. Like,

I'm not If I had to buy like a physical

gift, I would struggle, but this is all

I got.

>> [laughter]

>> Um as I said before, I would like her to

minister to us and let it try to help us

understand why God is only taking the

good people and leaving all the turds

behind.

Um

I then I started thinking like it might

be

because she's a creative person, I

wanted to ask her some would you

rathers.

>> Ooh.

>> You got to say with those. Um so I'll

just bang through these and you can edit

them out as you see fit. Ann, would you

rather only be allowed to eat pasta with

butter for the rest of your life or you

can have anything you want at any time

but all of your meals will be served on

a moving bus?

>> [laughter]

>> How about that?

>> [laughter]

>> I see it. If you're hungry, you have to

go down, get the bus. Oh, my lights are

going. And then you eat on the bus. Um

would you rather only be allowed to

reread books you've already read

>> Mm. [clears throat]

>> or only be allowed to read new things

and never look back?

>> Ooh, Tina, that's deep.

>> Okay. And then this is the sort of the

game I was going to propose, which is

because Ann is so

open and revelatory about herself in her

writing, we feel like we know her. We

don't really know her, but there's a

game that I like to play on road trips

with my family where um you pick a

person

and then everyone uh the way your family

has to guess who someone that you know

and who they're thinking of is you have

to answer these questions like, okay, if

this person was

a breakfast cereal, what would they be?

If this person was whatever. And so I

thought what if [clears throat] you and

I like to try to answer these questions

to describe Ann, but then ask her and

see what she says.

>> Oh.

>> And see if we get close.

>> Perfect. Okay.

>> Okay.

So here's the ones I had so far, which

is I started with if Ann was a color

what color would she be?

I'm going to say sort of a burnt orange.

>> just about to say a sunset orange.

>> There we go. Okay.

>> Oh boy, let's see what she says. I hope

she gets it right.

>> Because [laughter] we're right. Why am I

Look at my lights keep flickering. I got

to pay these bills. Um

if Anne was a breakfast food,

what do you think she would be?

>> Let's not forget she lives in

California.

Um so I'm going to say like an avocado

toast.

>> Okay. What would you say?

>> to I'm going to say for some reason I'm

going to say sort of like a a porridge

with um probably some kind of nuts,

probably let's say a California almond

uh and uh

you know, maybe some

maybe some fruits, but I think a lot of

brown sugar, like a sneaky amount of

brown sugar.

>> [laughter]

>> Like a amount of brown sugar that

renders it back to unhealthy.

>> [laughter]

>> Perfect. Delicious.

>> Um if Anne was a holiday uh within the

year, what would she be?

>> Oh, wow. This is a good one because it

really makes you think about what

holidays

you consider good and bad holidays.

And I we've I'm sure we've talked about

this on this pod and elsewhere, but Tina

and I don't always agree about what

makes a good or bad holiday.

>> I like a lot of holidays.

>> Well, the the the biggest example being

Halloween.

>> Right. I like Halloween. Amy does not

like Halloween.

>> No, it's for children.

Halloween is for children.

Um I'm going to say Thanksgiving.

>> Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's what I was

going to say that, too. No, thanks I

wrote Thanksgiving, duh, obviously.

[laughter]

>> Thanksgiving, duh. Okay, so she I hope

she gets that right.

>> Because gratitude and community and

yeah.

>> Yep.

>> If Okay, what if she was a house pet?

What kind of some kind of pet?

>> I think it's a cat.

>> Yeah.

>> I wrote down a cat, also. And then I

also wrote down kind of that maybe she's

kind of like a Greek cat, the ones that

kind of mostly live outside and are

pretty self-sufficient.

But they come around sometimes. Also a

little bit of a bearded dragon in that

there's I feel like there's a stillness.

There's a watch the watchful eyes.

And that she is able to eat cockroaches

and still get nutrition out of it.

>> Still can't believe you have a bearded

dragon in your house. You know what will

happen is eventually one morning you

will wake up and that will be bearded

dragon will be gone.

>> It'll lose in the house.

>> Yep. And you're going to fall asleep

looking for it and then it's going to be

on your chest over your mouth

>> [laughter]

>> sucking your spirit out.

>> Good luck. Good luck finding [laughter]

it.

Uh a day of the week. What what day of

the week do you think Anne would be?

>> Well, I'm going to say it might be too

on the nose, but I'm going to say

Sunday.

>> Sunday.

>> Yeah.

>> Sunday.

Come on Anne, you got to get that right.

Because of faith and also I think it'll

because it's a day where you kind of

take it easy on yourself.

>> So true. And you have a little bit of

Sunday blues which Anne isn't afraid of

and isn't afraid of talking about.

>> True. I bang my lights to that. Yes.

>> [laughter]

>> Um that was all I prepared.

>> is a perfect game. This is so fun. Of

course Betty, you come with a fully

realized written game.

>> Oh, god bless.

>> God bless is right. Thank you for that.

>> I'll see you

very soon.

>> I will see you very soon. Thanks for

your time. Love you.

>> Bye. Love you, too.

>> Bye.

>> This episode is brought to you by

Visible. Folks, it's officially summer.

Whether you're planning summer travels

or staying home to watch all the action

in the villa, you need a wireless

network that keeps you connected and you

don't have to splurge. With Visible, you

get unlimited 5G data and unlimited

hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25

a month. So you can save and order some

extra spritzers this summer. Visible is

more than just a wireless plan. It's

unlimited wireless designed to always

keep you connected and there's no

contract to tie you down. Switch today

at visible.com. Plan start at $25 a

month or get the premium Visible Plus

Pro plan and save $10 on your first

month when you use promo code hang.

Terms apply. See visible.com for plan

features and network management details.

This episode is brought to you by

Hilton. Did you hear Paris Hilton has

like a billion Hilton Honors points?

Well, she calls them Paris points and

Hilton is helping her give them all away

this summer. Use them for that wedding

or pleasure, that's business and

pleasure, or maybe book a stay just for

sleep. As Paris would say, that's

sliving. Just make sure you're a Hilton

Honors member and follow Paris and

Hilton on the socials to see how Paris

points can be your points. When you want

points that actually make your summer

slay, it matters where you stay.

And La Mer brought me a

um a package.

>> A care package.

>> gosh, how are you?

>> Good.

>> Thank you for doing this.

>> Are you [laughter] kidding?

>> Can I open it now? First of all,

beautifully wrapped.

>> Thank you.

>> Did you wrap it?

>> I had a lot of trouble with it. I want

to say [laughter]

I had a lot of trouble.

>> Are you a good wrapper?

>> Could I have the ribbon back? Yeah, the

ribbon's great. Unless you really want

it.

>> No, the ribbon is beautiful.

>> Yeah, it's my best ribbon.

>> But what's the present?

>> Okay, there's a bunch of things. [gasps]

What is that? Okay, that's from Mexico.

That's the hand of God, but it's a

really special one because it not only

has Mother Mary, it has a baby goat.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Don't you love Mary? I mean, how can you

not love Mary, right?

>> I want to talk about Mary.

>> All right, we'll talk about Mary. I love

her. That's my favorite favorite pair of

socks. I got them in um Paris, but

they're from Japan. I only worn them

once, but not for years.

>> [laughter]

>> But I've always saved them cuz they were

so incredible.

>> Yeah, you know, sometimes if you feel

worried or lonely and you put on socks

that someone gave you, they just can

change your whole day around.

>> Oh, Anne, I love these. Thank you for

this. This is so nice.

>> Okay, now this is really special. You

know, I hang out with a lot of sober

people and when COVID happened, the old

ladies at my favorite women's group

started making miracle bracelets for the

young the newcomers, the women and girls

who came in who were brand new in COVID,

which made everything. So, I never wear

these unless I need a miracle and that

means I'm feeling very mentally ill and

tweaked and clenched and clutch. Then I

go get a miracle bracelet and I put it

on and I think I'm going to keep my

hands off the spaceship till I hear back

from [laughter]

God or whatever she's up to tonight. And

so then I put that on and I and I'm not

kidding, it works 100% of the time.

>> This is a beautiful beaded miracle

bracelet and I will say it has a little

bit of like a Taylor Swift energy, too,

which I

>> Oh, I I've never heard about Oh, this is

the best thing. Wait, wait, wait, you

have to look at the color.

>> Okay. Pocket blessings by Blessings

Abound. Okay, so I'm opening up a tiny

box with what looks like a little ribbon

inside.

And Anne, just to just let everybody

know again, Anne has brought me a

beautiful box of gifts and here's one

that has tiny blessings.

Oh, and it's a little blessing. It's

>> scroll.

>> A little scroll.

Oh, wow, a little scroll with a blessing

in it.

>> Yeah. I wonder what it says.

>> do you know?

>> [laughter]

>> Anne knows.

Oh, and it says, "You are a blessing."

Coming in real hot, Anne Lamott. Coming

in with all of these gifts.

I mean, you've already given me so much

and here we are with this beautiful box.

Anne Lamott is with me.

Anne, I I'm so thrilled. I You know,

when I was thinking about being with you

today and thinking about what we were

going to talk about or what I should

talk to you about and all that stuff.

>> [gasps]

>> I just had the moment where a moment you

would remind me to have, which is like,

"Oh, don't forget you're just going to

be each other's company.

>> Right.

We're just hanging.

>> I know.

>> I know. We never got to be together.

We've had this really nice friendship,

but we've never been in actual touch

before.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean it's funny because I feel like if

I wrote to you and said

um Amy, I'm in I need you. You'd say,

"Okay."

>> Yeah.

>> "What do you need?" And if you said that

to me, I'd say, "Okay, I'm there. What

do What do you need?" And I would show

up

>> I know.

>> wherever you were. Isn't that funny and

we've never actually been in the same

room together.

>> I feel that, too. I really do. I

>> It's funny.

>> You know, you are a person who I just

said, "Will you be my friend?" And you

said, "Yes, I'd love to be your friend."

And it's a good I always love to be

reminded that I haven't met all the

people I'm supposed to meet and I'm not

friends with all the people I'm supposed

to be friends with. And I feel like you

and your writing and the way you

>> [snorts]

>> include all of us in your life and your

world is why I feel emboldened to do

things like that. So, thank you. You are

our first author

that we've ever had on Good Hang.

>> Oh, wow.

>> And it means a lot to me that you're

doing this. When I talk to other actors

and performers, I feel

um

like we're

I don't know, we're sharing a

vocabulary, but there is a there's a a

funny thing that happens with writers

where people like myself want to make

sure that we sound smart.

>> I know.

>> [laughter]

>> Well, I feel like, too, all the time

with everyone. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I

have to do a special draft of everything

I write where I go through and I take

out the lies and I go through and I take

out all the stuff that I just shoehorned

in so that people think I'm smarter than

I am or that I'm educated.

>> Yes.

>> And then I take it and I go, "It's okay,

honey. You're just where you are. It's

fine."

>> Isn't it funny we just keep doing it?

Same thing with like advice. Like

someone told me one time like wait until

someone asks you for advice to give it

and no one ever asks.

>> [laughter]

>> No one ever actually asks, what do you

think I should do?

>> That's so hurtful.

>> Well Amy, what do you think I should do?

>> I think you should just keep doing what

you're doing.

>> Okay.

>> I feel I feel like Anne, do you get this

a lot because I I'm already feeling this

way where people say to you, Anne tell

me like do they want you to kind of

emotionally lay hands on them and feel

and and make them feel better or

different? Do you Do you find people ask

that of you?

>> A little bit, yeah.

>> that like?

>> Well, um you know I've I've been a

Sunday school teacher for 32 years so I

have a lot of tricks up my sleeve. I've

recently retired but I was sitting there

with my kids and it's a tiny failing

church so there might be four kids there

and they could be a four-year-old up to

a 15-year-old, right? And I do this

thing called loved and chosen with them

and so I I might go, is there anyone

here wearing a sort of navy shirt with

pink grid on it? Well, you know how

little kids are they go

>> Yes.

>> And and wave at me and I go, oh Amy,

you are loved and chosen as is. Why

don't you come sit with me for a minute?

And I do it with but it might be like is

anyone wearing Pokémon shoelaces, right?

But that's what I just try to convey to

people that you know you're loved and

chosen and you're exactly where you're

supposed to be and I really care and can

I get you a glass of water?

>> You you reminded me of when Mr. Rogers

used to say the names at the end of his

show, remember that? And he would look

through and say and I see and he would

say all these names and you'd be kind of

awaiting to see if your name came up,

if he could see you. It was such that's

an example of just like little people

and big people, they just want to be

seen.

>> They just want to be seen. So do we.

>> Yeah, we all want to I mean that truly

if I was to sum up what your writing

does for me is it makes me feel less

alone, and it makes me feel seen, and it

also

gets rid of the mystery of things that I

think keeps us apart from each other.

Um

I want to talk about all of that today

and all of the stuff that you've

written, and I I kind of want to start,

if it's okay, with talking about the

stuff that you write currently in real

time

all the time cuz you're here to talk

about your new book that you wrote with

your wonderful husband, Neil.

What are your steps when you're working

on something where you where you're

calling yourself out, where you're where

you're taking your

>> Oh, I edit me the way I would edit you.

I edit me with a lot of gentleness. I'd

say to me or you, I'd say, "You know

what, Amy, I love this,

but um I think maybe it goes somewhere

else, not in this piece you just handed

me," which means it doesn't work here at

all, but I would say it in that way. And

I would say, um it just feels a little

bit like on the first page, like you're

sort of clearing your throat a little

bit, but on page two, you start to get

into it, and that's where you caught my

You know, that's how I would talk to

you.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, also, I know you're parent of

sends, also, and um

you know, nothing worked, right, but

bribes and threats. I mean,

>> [laughter]

>> anything else? No. Bribes and threats.

So, I'll say, "Okay, Annie, if you write

this one passage,

um we're going to stop and and go for a

walk. We're going to stop and watch MS

Now. We're going to stop and have a half

a sandwich."

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and um

>> Treats at the end.

>> And threats. If you don't

>> [laughter]

>> And so, I'm strict and friendly with

myself um when I'm working and writing,

and I do a lot of bribes and threats,

and um and somehow, you know, and then I

write incredibly terrible first drafts,

and then I go back and I take out half.

>> Yeah.

>> I take out half. And that part's so

painful. I don't know if it's the same

with you as a comedian, but it's like

you hate to just lose something, you

know, that you you loved and thought

really worked for a writer.

>> you think anything works, it usually

goes away. Like it's always like, "Oh,

that's the best joke." And it never

makes the movie, never makes the sketch

because you just you've become so

attached to it. You're just like in love

with it. And then someone goes, "Well,

you could lose this first piece." And

you're like, "My favorite joke?"

>> I know. We can't be friends anymore. I

know. Well, Jessica for the great writer

from Oakland said you have to kill your

little darlings. And you have to go

through and all those lines I used to

try to get you to think something about

me. Like that I'm smarter than, better

than, more ironic, more anything. I just

have to cut cuz then I'm going to hand

it to my husband, my current husband

Neil Allen,

and he is going to notice it. And he's

going to say, "You just don't need

this." And he's going to mark it. So,

it's better just to do it before

>> Now, you refer to Neil as your current

husband. Why?

>> husband. He's also my first husband.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. I I got married 3 days after I

started getting Social Security.

>> I cannot wait to talk to you about that

because the way you write about and have

shared your feeling about partnering up

in later in life is like

I've I've gotten so much from it. But

before we get there,

>> [laughter]

>> um I discovered you with Hard Laughter.

Which was that your first book?

>> It's my first book. That was 45 years

ago.

>> Wow. How old were you when you wrote

that book?

>> 24 when I I was 24 when I sold it. I

think I was 25 when I published it.

Yeah, I mean, it was just an amazing

break you

>> How what was that How did you get that

first break? How did you go from writing

and what and being published?

>> Um

well, my dad's agent had always agreed

to represent me if I ever wrote anything

representable. My dad was a well-known

writer.

And uh I kept sending her these stories.

And you know what they do before you

kind of hit before you really come up

with something.

This is like when a kid makes you

something like an ashtray out of clay

with a dent for the cigarettes to sit

on. They go, "Did you make that?" So

much so that I was like, "Oh, did you

make that?" [laughter] And they were

just terrible. And then my dad got sick,

which as you know from Hard Laughter, he

got a metastasized melanoma in his brain

and we knew he wasn't going to make it

cuz no one ever had yet in '77.

And um So I started writing about how a

family stays afloat when you know an

anvil has dropped on the family, when

the center of the of the family is not

going to be there forever. And a lot of

it was that we were laughing, you know?

And it was black gallows humor. And I've

always said that laughter is carbonated

holiness. If you're laughing in a really

tough patch of time, you're on holy

ground. And my brothers are funny and

and I want to try to love letter to my

dad so he would know how my brothers and

I felt about him. And so I changed it a

bit in that there was always a little

bit of hope in the novel that he was

going to be okay, which we knew he

wasn't. And I sent off six chapters and

um my agent

loved it.

And it was really rough.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know it's just like she saw the

diamond in the rough or something, you

know? And she showed it to an editor at

Viking, Cork Smith, and he loved it.

It was the strangest thing.

>> were writing it while your dad was ill,

right?

>> And I finished it and sold it by the

while his brain was still working. The

last 8 months or so he was really not

very functional, but he um you know

called me to tell me and had read it and

loved it. And I mean that was like the

great miracle of my life.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. But um

the first two reviews I got

were pre-pub reviews, Publishers Weekly

and Kirkus, and I got them in the mail.

I mean, I don't know if your audience is

even familiar with waiting for mail to

find out news about your career and your

finances, but I got these in the mail

from my agent and they just were

terrible reviews. They just said, "We

hate her. She's right about thinking

she's a loser as demonstrated in this

new novel."

>> So, you get your first terrible reviews

and you have to make a decision there

about what you're going to do with them.

What do you do with them? Where do you

put them?

>> Well, then there were then then I got

there was a it was amazing. Well,

luckily I was still drinking at the

time.

>> [laughter]

>> So, I got through that and then

by I didn't have a cent literally in the

world, but by hook and by crook and by

good friends, I got the money together

to go to New York for publication. And

Anne Tyler, one of my favorite writers

to this day, wrote this rave in the New

York Times Book Review.

>> Wow.

>> So, right. So, then then you think I've

arrived. [laughter] I'm the queen of the

hill. I'm the total princess of all the

earth. And then, of course, the next

thing you get a bad one.

>> Totally.

I was reading a something you wrote um

and I shared it with my friends just the

other day cuz you do often engage with

the world and you kind of like tell us

like I know it's bad out there. You do

the opposite of gaslighting which is

like

>> [sighs]

>> here's the bad things that happened this

week. I saw it, too. What should we do

about it? And the what should we do

about it is never anything that feels I

don't know. It just feels simple and

right and real and we're all kind of

working it out together.

Would you mind reading something that

you wrote? Okay. So, it's just this So,

it was this little section here because

I wanted to ask you about it. It it it

was when you were 68 and you were

writing about that year.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. But turning 68 means

you weren't born yesterday. Turning 68

means you've seen what you've seen.

Ukraine, Sandy Hook, the permafrost,

Marjorie Taylor Greene. By 68, you have

seen dear friends literally ravaged by

cancer, lost children, unspeakable

losses. The midterms are coming up. My

mind is still open. My dog died.

Really, to use the theological terms, it

is just too freaking much.

And regrettably, by 68, one is both

seriously uninterested in a vigorous

debate on the existence of evil or even

worse, a pep talk.

So, what does that leave? Glad you

asked. The answer is simple. A few very

best friends with whom you can share

your truth. That's the main thing. By

68, you know that the whole system of

our lives works because we are not all

nuts on the same day. You call someone

and tell them that you hate everyone and

all of life and they will be glad you

called. They felt that way 3 days ago

and you helped pull them out of it by

making them laugh or a cup of tea, you

took them for a walk for a walk or to

Target.

>> The idea that we're all not nuts on the

same day,

I mean,

talk about a blessing and it is exactly

what we're still dealing with right now,

which is like, what do we do? The world

just keeps spinning out of control.

Things just feel darker and darker and

darker.

What do we do? We make each other tea.

>> We make each other tea and we try to

shine a little brighter by, you know, we

laughter shines us up a bit. Um and so

goodness and um

um fresh air and radical self-care. You

know, you might binge on on Below Deck

or or um don't tell anyone but People

magazine

always right and radical self-care you

do what you would do with a close friend

you know and you with a close friend if

she is in even worse shape than you are

you're the one that says I'm on my way.

I'll be there in 15 minutes bring your

wallet.

>> I mean we we

I talk a lot about it a lot here and

just kind of show by example all of the

friends that give so much to me and that

I feel so proud to be

a part of their group but

I feel like female friendship is

>> It's different.

>> It's different. Why is it different

Anne? What what

>> Well, it's different because we're we

have always been so much more emotional

and truth-telling than men they weren't

raised to tell the truth they were

raised to look good you know they were

raised to seem or be powerful or to

amass more prestige and power and money

and whatever and we understood I mean

women our bodies are messy or the work

of women is messy with the you know in

the Christian tradition with the last at

the cross and the first at the cave you

know and we're we're there for birth and

death and we're comfortable we get

comfortable with it you know.

I was literally saved by girlfriends the

way other people are saved by Jesus or

Buddha and I mean that literally I was

literally saved by chapter books too and

I mean that literally I meant it meant

that no matter what the world threw at

with me I could still be with Shelly

Adams tomorrow when I'm 6 years old and

I'm 72 soon and Shelly Adams and I still

walk two or three times a week and when

I when the world has just thrown all

this horrible bleak stuff at me and get

in bed with Anne Tyler or Barbara

Kingsolver and there's going to be truth

and there's going to be laughter and

there's going to be insight and there's

going to be it's going to comfort my

entire soul and um and I feel that and I

love a lot of men writers a lot of men

and I've been influenced them

but I turn to women writers for truth

and comfort.

>> Yes.

>> do.

>> I I feel the same and I and I think

you're like I feel like

by reading your writing over the years

I've also got to walk with your friends.

Like I you bring your friends in your

work a lot and you do that wonderful

thing that is so loving which is

cuz to me teasing is kind of a love

language.

>> Mhm.

>> And the way you tease when your friends

tell you the the truth. Like when you

talk about Horrible Bonnie for example.

Like could you who could you speak about

Horrible

>> Horrible Bonnie was my mentor when I

first got sober which was in 1986.

And I always called her Horrible Bonnie

because no matter what I had on my mind

when I called her and it might be

disgusting like for a new drunk barely

sober woman and she'd always say,

"Oh dearest, I am so glad you called."

And then she would say everything was

going to sort out at the end which is

what John Lennon says. John Lennon says

everything will work out in the end. If

it doesn't look okay, it's not the end,

you know? And so Mary Baker Eddy, the

mother of all new thought of Eckhart

Tolle and Marianne Williamson, everybody

says that but Bonnie would say it in

this loving mother grandmother voice.

And at first I go, "Oh no, I don't think

you're you know, I think I don't think

you understand that the complexity of

that." And she would just say, "I know,

darling."

And so I always called her Horrible

Bonnie cuz she'd always ruin my bad

moods and she'd always make me have

hope and faith again. And that when

you're with people that help you

understand that it's the inside person

that just needs to feel to connect with

their loving sweet generous heart. That

is literally what heaven on earth is

like is when you connect with how

generous your heart is even though your

mind is like, you know, cranky and

cringy and trying to figure out who to

blame. In my case, I think you're fine

but in my case usually the default step

is to figure out to who to blame.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Right?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And then I can relax.

>> Oh, I mean and also, you know, I don't

know about you but of the two emotions

anger and hurt, I'd much rather be angry

than hurt.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> I mean, angry all the way.

>> All the way.

>> So, I'd much rather be mad than sad.

>> Oh, of course.

>> Sad's the Sad is is not where I want to

live.

>> No. So, let me tell you what is in

between those I think and it's one of

the things I wrote down. What keeps

happening when we feel that separation

from like if we're

hot if we've been hurt or if we've

gotten a bad review or we've gotten the

you know, neglected or or kind of blown

off or whatever,

paradoxically

what I feel and what I think a lot of

the women I'm close to have felt, you

just go into that shame spiral, right?

Instead of just crying or feeling grief.

>> Yeah, so tell people what Operating

Instructions for people who haven't read

it is about.

>> Well, okay. I Let me go back and say

when my dad got sick, I did what you do.

You go to the library and you look for

books by people you respect who have

been through a similar circumstance and

you read how they got through it. It's

our only hope mine most of the time. And

but there were no books in the 70s about

cancer because it was unseemly. That you

didn't talk about death or dying.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it was just like whoa, what a

buzzkill, right? And so when I had a

baby, I went to the library to find

books and I was single and I was broke

and all as usual. And

there was just nothing about the fact

that it can be so boring.

>> Yeah.

>> And I had an infant and pretty soon the

infant got colic and I would started

right I started keeping this journal.

And I like I'd write things like that

one night just strung out on that

exhaustion. It's unbelievable. I thought

about wrapping up my baby really

carefully in blankets and putting him on

the porch for the night just so I could

get one night's sleep cuz you know it's

like put your own oxygen mask on first

and no one had written stuff like that

yet or I had written at one point I

thought he had gone down and I could cry

with my love for him and then I wrote oh

God now he's raised his loathsome

reptilian head and no one had written

that before that's right and so people

were like oh my God so then the next

book after that was my first writing

book which was called bird by bird.

>> Right.

>> So it went from that to bird by bird and

then I think I wrote some more novels.

>> Now

and the thing about operating

instructions and I remember reading it

before I had kids and you didn't I

didn't understand I I understood later

what you were actually really talking

about about that

that those early times when you feel

sleep deprived and like the only one

getting it wrong and all that stuff. You

write what you did

it's still transgressive still to say

I'm not completely and madly in love.

I'm actually really stressed out and

I'm not feeling the bliss I'm supposed

to feel or I don't think I'm doing it

right or

there's still this

crazy amount of pressure for young

mothers to have to instantly be in love

with the new role that they have.

>> The shame of being a parent is just

something that just hadn't been talked

about at all.

>> Even the realization that your parents

are people is a relatively new idea that

your that your mother is a was a girl

and that your your parents are people.

It's not that old of a thought. Yeah.

>> Yeah it's true.

So then I wanted to do the same thing

with writing because all existent

writing books said if you did certain

things probably an outline and this and

that and the other that it things would

go well and you would almost certainly

sell your book and then you would have

really really good self-esteem all the

time.

>> Mhm.

>> And I wanted to say, um, this is how I

do it. I sit down and it goes badly most

days. I sit down

with the bad self-esteem and the raging

ego ping-pong game and I start writing

and it's awful. It's unreadable. It's

god awful, but I have a secret. I keep

my butt in the chair and I know to write

really terrible first drafts. I know and

a lot of writing students don't believe

that the writers they love most in the

world, the books they love most in the

world began as god awful,

overly long, purple prose first drafts.

>> But Anne, do you ever find other writers

pushing back on the idea or your ideas

of that? Because when you say that, what

you're doing is you're opening up you're

like, you know, people always believe

there's some kind of special room

>> Right.

>> that only certain people are allowed to

go into and there's certain vocabulary

that keeps people out of the room. And

when you open up the door and say, "Come

into the room." or "Here's how we do it

here." other people that are in the room

don't always like it.

>> Right.

>> Do you ever feel that or did you ever

feel that when you were first writing

about writing?

>> Almost everyone I've talked to ever

about writing has said, "Oh, that's the

same with me. Yeah, but I just keep my

butt in the chair and I bribe use bribes

and threats." Now, it's funny because

yesterday Nate Silver, the legendary

Nate Silver, out of nowhere, not

referencing me, said, "People talk

about, um, writing first drafts and and

that it's okay, um, not to get it right

as you're going." So, I find that a

great waste of time or something like

that. [laughter]

And I thought, "Well, that must be so

nice

>> Yeah, to have a fully formed

>> to be have to be have a fully formed

thing. It's like when right-wing

Christians tell you what the truth is

and you think, "God, that just must be

so nice to be so sure of yourself." Like

I never am.

>> Yeah, and like no one ever is.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Well, okay, you you you you talk about

right-wing Christians and Christianity

and we've talked a lot about

spirituality and

uh

you did you find your faith through

sobriety? Is that when you became

>> my faith drunk.

I'd always believed in God and my

parents were atheists so we were and I

know you were raised Catholic and that

that's a very beautiful way to have been

raised. I mean some issues.

>> [laughter]

[laughter]

>> Yeah, but um

>> Where did you first find God as a as an

adult?

>> I was living across this I was on a

houseboat literally twice the size of

this table with a sleeping loft in

Sausalito and and on I would be so

hungover and I'd walk across the street

to

um this flea market that was in this um

economically totally deprived place

where the crack epidemic had taken place

mostly people of color six churches in a

place of 2,000 people so and there was

this cuz when you're hungover you want

kind of greasy food and a lot of coffee

and

um and I would hear music from the civil

rights movement coming out of this one

ramshackle church with this horrible

uh [snorts]

Charlie Brown Christmas tree out in

front of pine tree that you know it

looked like Bertrand Russell at the end

and um but I could hear this music

coming and I'd been raised on civil

rights music and and on Joan Baez and

the Weavers and um Pete Seeger and I

knew all the words and sometimes I think

grace means you've just run out of any

more good ideas and I'd run out of any

more good ideas. I'd tried everything. I

tried to stick to four or five social

drinks and the non-habit forming

marijuana on a one and [laughter] and

some pills and one day at a time and I

couldn't.

So I finally went and I sat down in this

church

and the thing was they know there's like

30 or 40 people same church that I've

been at all these 41 years now and they

didn't

try to hustle me. They didn't try to get

me to sign on or to come to Bible study

or to figure out anything or to figure

out who shot the Holy Ghost. They just

could see I was desperate and lonely.

That's the GOD acronym of the gift of

desperation. And I sat there and I was

like

desperate but like crabby.

You know.

>> Yeah.

>> And I couldn't relate to people but they

got me water. I always left before the

sermons cuz I didn't want too much of

the Jesus stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> And then little by little it just ground

me down. Little by little I started

staying and I just always got and I got

while I was drinking and trying to be

other religions that

Jesus was a sweet sweet shepherd, you

know, and he just and he had this

incredible mother

and that it was the ultimate as is

program and that as I was which was

horrible and messy and promiscuous and

nuts although charming. I mean I had a

perfect life. I had I had um three books

published. I was well known in the my

everybody I love lived in my county, my

mom, my brothers, my cousins and but my

insides were like Swiss cheese and

little by little I could kind of bear

the Jesus part.

>> Mhm.

>> And um and so I started sticking around

and one day I was walking to my

houseboat on the along the dock

and I just this going to sound like I'm

crazy but

I could just feel him

and I could feel him like if a little

cat a little stray cat was running

alongside me and I didn't want a little

stray cat and all my friends are

progressive activists. They all worked

at Mother Jones at the time and it was

like I was kind of kicking the little

cat away go I cuz you feed a little

stray cat you it's not a stray cat

anymore. You probably own a cat now,

right? I'm not stupid. So, but then I

finally just stopped and I don't this

was grace,

which is spiritual WD-40, you know, with

that long thin red straw. That's and it

squirted me and I just said,

"Okay, fine. Come on in."

>> So, has it changed now that you that

little cat came? What What is that What

How is your

faith changed? Like I think for people

when they think about faith, I think

sometimes they think of it like an a

bank account that just, you know, like

an account that gets bigger and bigger.

Like you get more and more and more

faithful.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that how it works? Does it go away

and come back? Does the cat go away

sometimes and come back? Does it

How does it change?

>> because I I do the work, you know, I do

the practice and I study and

>> And the practice keeps it

>> And the cat I do I read the Bible a

little bit every morning and my friends

believe in God and a lot of them believe

in Jesus and in a non-annoying way and

>> [laughter]

>> And um

I just that has I mean, my best friend

died as you know from Operating

Instructions when I was not that sober

>> And And how old were you again, Annie?

>> When she died?

>> Yeah. How old was she and you?

>> 37. I think I was 37, too. And I got

sober when I was 32 and I had a two year

three year old

you know, two year old and um and it was

very, very scary and I wrote about it a

lot in Operating Instructions, but you

know, I I don't have an interesting or

sophisticated theological no different

than that day with the stray cat. I have

the theological understanding like a

really bright second grader, you know,

and I I don't have conversa-

I'm not asked to have conversations

about the triune nature of the deity,

you know? People will say, "I can't feel

God anymore. I can't feel God right

now." And I'll say, "Oh, good. Why don't

you sit down? Let's have a cup of tea.

Or do you want to go You want to go

shopping? You want to go for a walk? Or

do you want to lie down on the couch

with me?"

And so, I don't have um interesting

um intellectual answers about faith. I

just can feel it it's truth in me. I

just feel it in my heart. It's like I

have a heart cave, and in it is my

little one, my little Annie that I

always was, and and my big old Annie,

and and Jesus and Mary. And I can just

feel them in my

for whatever reason, I just let it go at

that.

>> Yeah. I mean, it even my question is

interesting that I'm realizing because I

think there's like this idea that

there's some deep second chamber, third

chamber to all of it, right? Like that

there's some Like did you get to level

10?

>> I didn't.

>> [laughter]

>> I didn't.

>> I mean, there is none. I mean, that's

the That's the big um

thing you find out in every department

of life, which is like you think there's

some secret room where all the cooler

people, smarter people, more evolved

people are, and there isn't.

>> isn't. There's just where we are, where

our butts are, where our hearts are. I

know. Well, um yeah, I keep it very

simple. I keep it very practical.

Can I ask you something?

>> Yes.

>> Do you think this is going okay?

>> Oh my god, I think this is going great.

>> Oh, okay, good.

>> Let's ask Jenna though. She's listening,

Jenna.

>> Okay, good.

>> this is going great.

>> Oh, okay, good.

>> And thank you for asking that, and I

love that you asked that because what I

wanted to say about we like

you are willing to kind of keep check

You you keep checking in.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it's important to check in, but

that is

that's not always easy to do to check in

to like kind of put dip your toe into

the Like there's the way in which we can

like kind of all live in our worlds of

I don't know, our comfort comfortable

worlds, and then we kind of sometimes

especially when we get older, I know for

myself, have to kind of force ourselves

to get uncomfortable. Like we We comfort

is really nice.

>> Right. Right. But you also discover that

it's in the discomfort and the dark

nights of the soul that the growth and

the healing happens. Because I would be

4'7" if I had had anything to do with

how how I was going to grow. I don't

like discomfort. I don't like growing

pains. I don't like mess. It makes me

crazy. I've been sober 40 years and I

have discovered that that is where it's

going to happen. It's like I'm not And

Jesus doesn't have a magic wand and tap

you on the head and say, "Go forth,

little one." You know, be happy and

joyful.

Um but Jesus uh and Jesus in the

distressing form of other people usually

sits down next to you shoulder to

shoulder and says, "You know, I can just

sit here for as long as you need and

we'll breathe together and things will

change."

>> So, do you believe this idea of like

other other difficult people are gurus

for you? You know, that you when

someone's like, "Oh, he's your guru.

She's your guru." Like this horrible

person is in your life for some reason.

>> I feel that later.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> I can tell when I'm really uncomfortable

cuz somebody's annoying me or um or they

just seem so stupid or so wrong. I can

tell that something good is going to

come of it in me.

Um but I'm not I don't want to sit next

to them at the table. And um it's like

in in one of the many 12-step programs

I'm in this there's one for people with

tiny control issues. They use the word

intimacy to mean into me I see.

>> Mhm.

>> And when I have that feeling of I'm

seeing in me, I don't love it. I'm not

avoiding the beautiful, generous, silly,

playful I'm avoiding the parts that is

scared that are scared and judgmental

that endless judgment.

>> [snorts]

>> And but you know, you if you want to

heal it, you've got to reveal it. And as

soon as I can see it and I share it with

my best girlfriend, I start to get

better. You know, people say, "Oh, let

go and let God." And I just want to

poke them in the forehead with a plastic

fork like they're a baked potato because

if I could have let go and let God, I

definitely would have, trust me.

>> Well, that's when people say like, "Oh,

you just have to feel your feelings."

And I'm like, "You got to be kidding

me."

>> Oh, stop.

>> Please. Like that I'm like there's got

to be another way

>> Yeah.

>> than actually feeling your feelings.

>> No, definitely. But reveal it sharing it

with a friend because then you at some

point you start laughing. Maybe you cry

cuz a person saying, "You know, I have

that exact same thing and I have a lot

of shame around it." And it's a kind of

short core shame that you might be

disgusting or not okay. It's not truth,

though.

>> Yeah.

>> It's not truth. It's something that like

my husband Neil and we need to segue to

Neil in a minute, but he does this work

with

>> Anne. She's just like quietly

controlling this interview.

>> Well, I know. I don't want I don't want

>> Are you kidding me? There's There's

nothing I love more than a woman and a

woman who's a little older than me who I

respect having control of this

interview.

>> Okay, good.

>> Let's talk about Neil.

>> Okay.

>> Can you tell everyone your meet cute?

How did you meet?

>> Well, we met on Match.

And um match.com Well, there's a match

um wing for older people. I forgot what

it was called.

Uh OurTime.

>> Mhm.

>> And um but I'm pretty well known in the

Bay Area and

>> And And had you Had you dated before

this?

>> a man for 6 years and I hadn't been with

anyone for a couple years.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, and um yeah, I'd been in

relationships so for about never gotten

married.

And then um

so I was I I decided I would learn to

date cuz I had never had to date. You

just Certainly when you're drinking, you

don't have to date. You just know you're

going to be with this person and they

have cocaine or they have money or they

have a car or they can get your

cigarette lit, you know, or whatever.

And um after I got sober, I just didn't

know how to date, but I always kind of

knew who like the next hostage was going

to be, you know? And you didn't know how

to like sit down and so and coffee and

get to know him. So, I decided I wrote a

piece that's online you can find it if

you put Anne Lamott and match.com. I had

a terrible year of dating. Like I dated

this one guy who had this Beavis and

Butt-Head laugh and I had to sit through

the whole coffee and I was just going

like that guy in the Three Stooges going

>> [laughter]

>> I was like that and but people were men

were bringing me manuscripts, stuff like

that.

>> Oh, wow.

God yeah.

>> And one man said on right before our

third date said, "Is it too soon to

bring you a plot treatment?" And I said,

"Yeah, a little bit." And I never saw

him again. But so, I learned how to date

and I learned a lot about who I am and

what I needed. This what I wanted my

whole life was a man who, if he were a

woman, would be my very best girlfriend,

my ultimate best girlfriend. I'd never

had that. I'd always had it I've been

with a really, really nice man and I'd

but it wasn't he wouldn't have been my

best girlfriend cuz he didn't have the

depth and the kind of the layers, the

archaeological layers that a woman or

the lasagna that a woman's being would

would present as. And so,

then I saw this tall, handsome guy on

um

match on our time and he was spiritual

and he I thought overeducated and um but

he seemed like he had a nice sense of

humor. So, I wrote to him.

And we wrote a little back and forth.

Well, it turned out he's allergic to

cats and I have a cat and I live for the

cat. For me it goes Jesus, the cat,

everyone else, right? And so, [laughter]

I thought, "Well, I can't I My grandson

lives with us so I couldn't be with

somebody who was allergic to the cat cuz

I'd have to go to his house all the time

and I basically don't like to leave my

house."

>> Yeah.

>> And so, I um so, we sort of it didn't

turn into anything. About 4 months

later, I saw this really attractive man

with beautiful

um face and a profile and I wrote and I

said, "Oh, I love your profile." And he

wrote back, "You already rejected me. I

think I'm not Jesus-y enough." And I

wrote back, "I could care less how

Jesus-y you are. It was just the cat."

And he said, "Well, I have lived with

cats. I'm violently allergic, but if you

put brewer's yeast in their kibble,

after a week, I won't be very allergic

to the cat." And I thought,

>> That's a trick?

>> It's a trick. That's a hack. And so, I

thought he was just either trying to get

me to do whatever, or he needed

[laughter] an agent or something. And we

got together, and and we've never been

apart for a single day, unless one of us

has been out of town. And that was

coming up on 10 years ago.

>> Wow.

>> So, that was how we met cute. Now, I'm

going to segue into

>> And I love that.

>> that. I know.

>> And he would be my best girlfriend.

>> Yeah, he would. He just loves He loves

to chat. He You guys have shared

interests. He loves He doesn't He loves

the bigness of you. He does You don't

have to dim your light around him.

>> And he loves God, and it's not quite the

same, but it's uh you know, it's so much

the same.

>> But is that true that you wouldn't have

minded if he didn't love God?

>> have been hard for me if he didn't have

God in his life, cuz it would have been

like not speaking English, but his um

like [laughter] his what he is is I

would say more Eastern.

>> Uh-huh.

>> He has more Eastern traditions in him,

but one of us will be writing. He's a

very accomplished writer, and he'll he

might come in and say, "Can we talk

about spirit?" And I'll go, "Yeah." And

he'll write down Or all muse, it's me

saying, "Can we talk about Can we talk

about the soul?"

>> Mhm.

>> And and then I'll scribble down

everything he says, and then steal it

all. Or he'll do the same. And so, we

have this We jam. You know, we do these

endless jams and riff, because

it On the first or second first date, I

think we both found out how much time

we'd both spent with dying people. He

was a hospice volunteer, and I've had

many, many people who have died, and

I've been with many people, cuz their

families have asked me in cuz I'm not

afraid of it, you know, cuz I went

through it with my dad and Pammy and a

lot of people by now and we talked about

that. Well, who can you talk to like a

date and it when he said, "Oh, yeah, I'm

a hospice volunteer." I went, "You've

got to be kidding."

>> You're like a

>> And then we both wanted we both had

decided we wanted to play

Ripple at our memorial services.

>> [laughter]

>> And so then 3 years later he asked me to

marry him and we played Ripple for our

processional.

>> I mean

it's so

get get get kind of getting back to what

we said in the beginning.

It's so it's such a good reminder to

remember that we have not met all the

people we're supposed to meet. We have

not loved all the people we're supposed

to love. Like life is still like if we

are lucky enough to be talking today

like I know

Like I I thought about this thing when I

woke up today that that I haven't

hanging in my house and I thought of you

which is that Dolly very famous Dolly

Lama quote like every morning when you

wake up think to yourself, "I am so

fortunate to have woken up. I have one

precious life." Like it's just basically

like if you are still around you're

still around.

>> Mhm. Yeah.

>> So you and Neil wrote a book

good writing and the book is about you

know

>> good writing

>> Yeah, about kind of like it's I really

like it because it is it's like Neil's

um very smart and helpful ways to get

your sentences better and then Anne

comes in to say

>> Wait a

>> reminds me of something and wait a

second. It's like listening to a

conversation.

>> Yeah, it is a conversation.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> The subtitle of good writing is 36 rules

to improve your sentences and Neil had

them on our first date and I've been

teaching writing since before Milton

Berle, you know,

>> [laughter]

>> and as my father would say and

and he had these rules cuz he was a

journalist for 10 years at the Bergen

County Record and they were all rules

like like uh, you know, like layer your

sentences, um bring in sense bring in

the sense take out the boring stuff. I

forgot what rule it is, but you know,

write from good verbs. You don't need to

say Amy walked across the studio. You'd

say Amy staggered across the studio. Amy

tiptoed, Amy sl- Amy slunk across the

studio. Amy danced, you know, and and

they were all brilliant rules. So, then

about 2 years ago he said, "Oh, I'm

turning those rules into a book." I

said, "Oh, that's great." So, wonderful

writer. So, he wrote sort of meditations

on each of the rules. And then I became

and then I became convinced that

somewhere in this book there was a place

for me and I sort of tugged on his

shoulder one day and said, "You know, I

know something about [laughter]

writing."

And um

>> I wrote a very successful

>> I wrote a book once and um and I said,

"I'd really love to annotate your rules,

you know, enlighten it up a little." I

mean, his rules are great. And so, I

would come in and then I'd write my

meditations which would frequ-

frequently point out that he is

overeducated and there are rules that I

think people can ignore and instead in

my experience what might work better is

>> Well, I like your the challenger in me

likes

the idea of like someone having a rule

and then someone getting to poke the

rule. Like and a and a good rule it it

can can stand the poking.

>> Totally.

>> Okay, we do this thing on the pod where

we ask somebody who is a friend of yours

or a fan of yours or someone who loves

your work

or or loves our guest to ask them a

question. And I really thought about who

to ask for this.

And

I realized I'm like, I should just ask

my old friend because my old friend Tina

Fey is a huge fan of you.

>> Oh, she is.

>> And she's an incredible writer. She's

one of the best writers I know and her

and I have talked about you and your

books and your writing. And so, Tina and

I were talking about you just I hope

your ears were burning in a good way. We

were talking well behind your back. And

we were we were talking about the ways

in which your book provides comfort and

have your books your work your posts all

of it feel like it is a way in which in

in a world with so little comfort. That

you keep doing that for us and we're so

grateful for it. And

women pass around your work.

Like what I imagine.

They did with medicine back in the day.

It's really special

and I'm thrilled that she wanted to

talk about you and and to me about you.

So she had some questions for you.

Tina was like

wanted me to give you some would you

rather? Would you rather only eat pasta

with butter for the rest of your life or

you can have anything you want to eat at

anytime but all of your meals have to be

served on a moving bus.

>> Um pasta.

>> Okay, would you rather be allowed to

reread books you've read and be that be

the only thing that you're allowed to

read or only new things and never look

back.

>> I read only books I've read and loved.

>> Okay.

Um

We have answered some of these for you.

You tell hopefully you'll get it right.

And if you were a color what color would

you be?

>> Lavender.

>> Oh, we both got it wrong. We both said

the same color.

>> you say?

>> We both said like a orange like a sunset

orange or a burnt orange.

>> I don't look good in that color. I only

like colors that I look good in.

>> Okay, that's true. Tina we got it wrong.

So lavender. Okay.

If you were a breakfast food, what do

you think you would be?

>> Oatmeal.

>> Yeah, she nailed it. Tina said some kind

of porridge.

>> Yeah, I love oatmeal.

>> If you were a holiday, what would you

be?

>> I love Easter.

>> I knew we should have picked that one.

>> Yeah, I heard a great line or read it

somewhere it said

we are Easter people living in a Good

Friday world and I love that so much cuz

it's such a Good Friday world. It's so

>> What does that mean a Good Friday world?

>> Good Friday world is where they

crucified Christ and it's dark and the

sky turns black and there's no hope

anywhere and all we see is power and

evil and corruption and cruelty.

And then 2 days later we see the spring,

we see resurrection, we see new life.

>> Mhm.

>> So um

you know the

cross looked like a big win for the

Romans and then 2 days later no, it's

Jesus and Mary going we're okay, you're

okay, come with us.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

Um what kind of house pet would you be?

>> A cat.

>> Yeah, we got that right.

>> Yeah.

>> A specific kind of cat?

>> No.

>> And what is the best What do you love

about cats?

>> I just love that it's like having a

little monkey living at your house and

they're so pathetically needful of your

love even though they pretend [laughter]

>> Oh yeah, my cat is an embarrassment. She

is so desperate for and also she's stand

offish and I mean depending on their

mood they're yeah, but um I just I

always had cats and I always knew that

if I could find the cat I was going to

be okay, I wasn't alone anymore.

>> Mhm, yeah. I cats

>> Dogs are too easy. I mean dogs love I'm

not going to name names but dogs love

anyone.

>> But cats you don't know where they are.

>> No, it's awful.

>> And I don't like that. I want I want to

know

>> that in one of these books about I was

going to get buttons made that said the

kitten is not dead, the kitten is in the

living room because [laughter] I went

through the kitten is dead with Neil and

he and he kept saying no, the kitten's

not dead, the kitten's hiding, the

kitten's probably in the living room.

Yeah.

>> The hiding is stressful for me.

>> a nightmare.

>> I like I like the pet that comes to

comes out to greet you.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> But I understand. And then what day of

the week would you be?

>> I love Sunday mornings.

Not cuz I'm going to church, because

it's Sunday morning and it's the Sabbath

and you are commanded to to to do as

little as possible. And I believe rest

is a sacred act. And I, you know, it's

the end of the week and it's just such a

luxurious warm blanket of a day for me.

>> And and as the people that are

listening, like Sunday blues is a real

thing and it's definitely a thing when I

have kids getting ready for Monday for

school. Like that that feeling of dread.

We talked about it a little bit. How do

you

Can you give us all, as as I'm I'm

asking you to do this even though I I

you don't want to put you on the spot,

but like this feeling, like what do you

do with your dread? How do you break it

apart so it doesn't get so big and and

and snowball into something big?

>> I do a lot of breath work and I pray. I

do breath work and I pray. And I um call

a girlfriend

or I go find Neil or my son and I say,

"Do you have a minute?" And then I say,

"What's going on?" And as soon as you

share it with someone, it's lessened.

That's the only way I've ever been able

to let go is to share it with somebody.

>> Yeah.

>> And then it gets so much it's dilutes

it.

>> Mhm.

It's so true. And so and it it always

goes back to that simple thing of like

just not trying to go in your space

capsule and take care of it by yourself.

>> Right. Figure it out is a terrible

slogan.

It's a terrible slogan.

And and breath is

>> [snorts]

>> Holy Spirit and breath is life.

>> Mhm.

>> And uh and I pray. I say, you know, I

wrote a book called Help Thanks Wow, the

three essential prayers. And I'm usually

saying one of them. Help me. Help me. I

am in a hole too deep to get myself out

of. Or I'm going, "Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you that you

got me out of that hole. Thank you." Or

I'm stepping outside and going, "Wow.

It's so beautiful in the world. It's so

fresh and blue and the and things are

starting to bloom in California. The

paper whites are blooming and um so I'm

always saying one of those three

prayers.

>> Yeah.

>> They always work.

>> Oh.

Well, I'm going to say wow back to you,

Anne.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you for doing this. You're so I

mean I I

I'm just Thank you for my presents.

>> You're welcome. Yeah.

>> Thank you for my hand.

>> Yeah, with Mary and the goat.

>> Give it up for Mary. Shout out to Mary.

>> Shout out to Mary. Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> Shout out to Mary, the original pop

star.

>> Right.

Right. Who's who told that little boy

Diego, "Don't be afraid. I'm here." And

that's what she says now. She says it to

us both right now. "Don't be afraid. I'm

here.

You're okay."

>> Oh, Anne Lamott, thank everybody.

Thank you for being here. Thank you. It

means so much.

Thank you, Anne Lamott, so much for

joining us. And for today's Polar

Plunge, I feel like I feel compelled to

to say what Anne would say, which is to

remind you

that

good behavior and good action can be

small and tender. It doesn't have to be

a giant I don't know, sweeping gesture.

So

on behalf of Anne's good works and in an

attempt to just kind of I don't know

put a drop of goodness, a molecule of

goodness back in the world

maybe

mow your neighbor's lawn or shovel their

driveway or leave a gift for them.

Maybe put a little gift on your

neighbor's porch today. Cookies that you

made. I don't know. And write from your

secret admirer. But that might be weird,

so don't do it like that. But you know

what I mean. Just do something for your

neighbor.

Think about people around you. Do

something small. As Anne would say, give

them water. Give them a cup of tea.

Say hello to people who perhaps haven't

been said hello to today.

And always reminds me to do that. I'll

do the same and pass it on. Thanks for

listening to Good Hang. See you soon.

Bye.

>> You've been listening to Good Hang. The

executive producers for this show are

Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman,

[music] and me, Amy Poehler. The show is

produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite.

For The Ringer, production by Jack

Wilson, Kat Sviland, [music] Kaya

McMullen, and Aleia Zineris. For Paper

Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel

Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original

music by Amy Miles.

>> I don't know if I ever want to want a

really [music]

good hang.